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 Forum index » General Discussion » Groentjuh's Server Forum
RULE DISCUSSION - Hitting through props
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
 RULE DISCUSSION - Hitting through props

Let's discuss in which cases hitting through props is allowed.

Case 1. Behe hitting RC through the gate-prop.

Case 2. Behe hitting arsenal or towers through the big stone rock props on ts_mini2.

Case 3. Lego hitting sub through the wall-prop.

Case 4. Behe hitting shield and other buildings through the stairs-prop.


***

My take on these cases is as follows.
Case 1: I think this should be allowed, because this is impossible to enforce. Even if a ref is willing to spend the entire spectating this single spot, it's a very ambiguous thing to enforce. Even if a behe stands behind the prop, he can look to the side and it is no longer clear whether he hits "through prop". The same applies to kinixxx. Some people complain about behes hitting "through mountain" but those behes usually hit at an angle such that it's really hard to tell whether it is legit.
Case 2: Using behe to hit through this prop is clearly not intended by the map maker. I don't think this should be allowed.
Case 3: Using lego to hit a sub through a prop is widely considered to be not allowed (unless some part of the sub is actually visible *through* the prop). Refs have been slaying people for doing this for many years. I am fine with this being allowed, but this change has to be clearly communicated to everyone, both refs and regular players.
Case 4: It is tempting to say that this was not intended by the map maker, but, after more discussion with Skuggi, I convinced myself of the opposite. Namely, this is a stairs-prop for a reason, people will often camp on top of these stairs. It is totally reasonable that behe will come close and hit through this prop to hit whatever campers might be hiding behind. If a commander builds his shield right behind this prop (like Necro did in this screenshot) - it is the commander's fault. I think this should be allowed.

Overall, I think these screenshots show that a single rule may not be applicable to hitting through props. And one has to decide what to do on a case-by-case basis. Discussion is important to set some examples.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:58 am
Last edited by Gridfon on Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
Why are/were the rule discussions a secret? not@Gridfon, I'm surprised that a discussion about how to enforce rules (rules that are poorly written) have been excluded from public chat.
I mean how else are players supposed to understand the chaos of random ref slayings?

A perfect example is when I was slayed by trigardon in a long match where I spawned a behemoth for the first time +40 minutes in, and within 3 seconds was slayed. I didn't even see a demo. Its like he had me on speeddial...

But in the case of your cases, I have to disagree that the mappers intentions have any play at all in the discussion, as mappers don't know and can't know where commanders will build on their maps within reason.
Also, the ability of hitting through walls should not be a players responsibility or refs, because its too tempting and almost impossible to avoid especially in case one, It would be silly for a scared player to just walk plain sight into the mortars direct impact to satisfy refs.
sadly you just have to be careful where you build in savage...

The lack of prop interactivity of collision/animation were what most of the Australian community were hoping XR would fix (you know - existing problems) and sadly the opposite happened, hence the lack of players...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:50 am
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bullet
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Joined: 09 Nov 2014
Posts: 78
I agree with you on case 1, Gridfon.

In case 2, you can see that there is two props the behe hits trough, the stone(s) and the wall.
A good solution I think would be a rule that state hitting trough multiple, unclimbable (no camping) props with behe to attack enemies or enemy base, is illegal. However, maps where behes can hit trough multiple, unclimbable props isn't that many, and some might argue the rule would be to specific.
I agree that case 2 should not be allowed, however, when server have no refs, it's hard to get such rules enforced, hence the get it in the rules imho.


In case 3, I agree it should not be allowed, especially not with behemots. Legionaires and predators hitting a garr/sub trough a wall isn't as much game-changer as a behe killing a garr. If badly placed garr, the behe can spawn camp behind the wall too, killing enemies who spawn aswell. But I'm under the impression unit-specific rules should be avoided to the degree it's possible to do so, to avoid making the game less newbie-friendly and more confusing to new players. The prop used here is used in a lot of maps, so it's important to get this right. Does anyone have a suggestion besides the behe-specific rule to not allow behe-hitting trough wall? We could allow it, and let it be.
Inserting a rule like that would be hard to communicate to all of savage's community, because a lot of players in this game come and goes for months or years. When they come back, they get confused by the new rules. It's wiser to leave it allowed imho.


In case 4, I agree. Camping spots should allways be allowed to hit witj siege units.


Off-topic to Djinghis: Just leave the game dude. You're reply is full of indirect hate and anger towards the refs, diverting the theme of this topic.
The only constructive thing I can see in your reply is that behemots can avoid going into mortars by hitting trough props and the fact that maps in savage ain't made perfectly, and hence, comms will have to be careful when building.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:04 am
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
bullet wrote:
Off-topic to Djinghis: Just leave the game dude. You're reply is full of indirect hate and anger towards the refs, diverting the theme of this topic.
The only constructive thing I can see in your reply is that behemots can avoid going into mortars by hitting trough props and the fact that maps in savage ain't made perfectly, and hence, comms will have to be careful when building.


First of all and in actual fact the topic is about refs/rules/exploits, and telling me to leave the game displays your hate and is somewhat hypocritical.

Secondly, if you can only see one constructive thing in my replay, maybe you need to improve your reading skills?
You seem to have misread/misunderstood my post -

djinghis wrote:
Why are/were the rule discussions a secret? not@Gridfon, I'm surprised that a discussion about how to enforce rules (rules that are poorly written) have been excluded from public chat.
I mean how else are players supposed to understand the chaos of random ref slayings?

I will elaborate further...
This comment is questioning the very nature of this thread and why until now, people like you "bullet" were unable to voice your opinion or know how rules were enforced, whereas before unless you were a ref. The rules are written poorly, this is fact, so derive hate from it if you will, but its fact - perhaps evident by this thread?.

djinghis wrote:

The lack of prop interactivity of collision/animation were what most of the Australian community were hoping XR would fix (you know - existing problems) and sadly the opposite happened, hence the lack of players...

bullet wrote:

diverting the theme of this topic.


I believe that my comment is very much on topic, and probes the underlying subject of behemoths hitting through objects. I heard this from many Aussie players years ago that this was one of savages biggest problems and physics generally, and many were disappointed in XR I don't make shit up.

bullet wrote:

Off-topic to Djinghis: Just leave the game dude.


Lastly, I'm a little bewildered that you had the audacity to write a comment off topic in a post about how I'm off topic...
I'm not going to be so childish to tell you what to do with your spare time, instead I will put this here http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,17878.0.html

P.S. Don't call me Dude...
P.P.S No, I will never leave...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:43 am
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
This is a placeholder post.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:13 pm
Last edited by Gridfon on Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548


Stay in the green zone team.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:10 am
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
bullet wrote:
A good solution I think would be a rule that state hitting trough multiple, unclimbable (no camping) props with behe to attack enemies or enemy base, is illegal. However, maps where behes can hit trough multiple, unclimbable props isn't that many, and some might argue the rule would be to specific.
I agree that case 2 should not be allowed, however, when server have no refs, it's hard to get such rules enforced, hence the get it in the rules imho.

I agree that it's too specific, and I don't even know what other maps this clarification would apply to.

bullet wrote:
In case 3, I agree it should not be allowed, especially not with behemots. [...] Does anyone have a suggestion besides the behe-specific rule to not allow behe-hitting trough wall? [...] Inserting a rule like that would be hard to communicate to all of savage's community, because a lot of players in this game come and goes for months or years. When they come back, they get confused by the new rules. It's wiser to leave it allowed imho.

Regarding the bold text, note that currently no units are allowed to hit buildings through walls AFAIK. I think only two options are reasonable. Either leave it like now (not allowed for all units), or do the opposite (allow it for all units). I would allow it for the sake of simplicity (the less rules you have, the more likely it is that someone will actually remember and follow your rules). On the other hand, since (or if) people are used to the fact that this is not allowed, it can remain that way.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:54 am
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