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Question about rule: Commanders spawning as siege
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bullet
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Joined: 09 Nov 2014
Posts: 78
 Question about rule: Commanders spawning as siege

I talked to element on the server today, and he told me that others (other referees I assumme) have decided that siege spawning as commander is fine when the server is small.

The challenge I see here is the following:

Ref X says on day 1 that its fine for both comms to spawn siege when there is 3 players on each team
Ref Y says on day 2 that its fine for both comms to spawn siege when there is 6 players on each team
Ref Z says on day 3 that its not okay for both comms to spawn siege when there is 5 players on each team

And to make it even more confusing: The rules currently used, was adapted from Groentjuhs's server, where commanders gets insta-slayed by a script if they spawn as siege.

So the way I see it, there is 3 options:
- use the script (im sure its possible to use the same script as Groentjuh does (or make it self)) - for consistent enforcement of the rule, without exceptions
- Define a limit in numbers, where its allowed if you only get below x players on your team.
- Let referees use their different standards for what a small game is (in-consistent enforcement, creates more complaints and more dramain general, community gets confused).

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:41 pm
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soma
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Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 314
i myself can let comms playing in few morning hours like 2v2 sometime 2vs3 or even 3vs3 but not more.
until one of comms is not happy to spawn and let other comm spawn using siege units.

you know, its depend on the case which you can see in the 1st few morning hours between players.

otherwise i agreed to apply that option slay comm automatically whenever he try to use siege unit.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:49 pm
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bullet
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Joined: 09 Nov 2014
Posts: 78
Yeah, but I heard a rumour that Jmz didnt want scripts on his server for server performance reasons (dunno if true or not).

Yes, this rule is specifically in question in the mornings and late in the night.

Under normal gameplay with 20-30 players, its no problem - the rule is in place.

Maybe, it can be made such that the script is customizable, and checks number of players on server before it slays comm? That would be fantastic in case.

Anyway, i vote for the groentjuh's option - less to do for referees and no confusion for the community about the enforcement of such rule.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:07 pm
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The Raging Asparagus
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Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 122
Hi Bullet,
This is an old dilemma indeed.

As ref I found myself on a 3v3 game turning gradually into a 10v10 match, however I felt it's inappropriate to slay the comms which just 5-10min ago I allowed them to spawn siege.

For this reason I actually don't like the script in Groenth server as it discourage you from taking comm on a small server fearing you won't have the ability to respond as siege.

I think there is no "clear cut solution here" (unless JmZ would like to integrate the script with some constant limit) however for fairness sake I think on a "small game" (whatever the definition of the current ref is to a small game) the ref should announce in chat if he is allowing comm to spawn siege or not (and this should apply until the end of match).

I do however see a potential problem if another ref comes and sees a small game which turned into a medium game and starts slaying although the first ref approved siege spawning.
So I guess the solution for this would be better communication between refs and aligning yourself with the former ref decision on the current match.

So again.. I see no "easy solution" without employing scripts.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:03 pm
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Groentjuh
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Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 618
Location: World > Europe > Benelux > The Netherlands > The hague
The script is custom made by Milka. Some version is included in XR, so JmZ could activate that.

It has the ability to first count the amount of players, so it can be setup to allow for small matches to have commanders spawn.

It could be modified to count just once 30 seconds into the game and only use that. That way a commanders of a game that starts as 2 v 2 will always be allowed to spawn siege. The most important for scripts is to define that is that unwanted situation. They can be really harsh.

It can also be setup to just warn referees, so they can actually judge themselves.

JmZ is fairly much against scripts. Did you know they also exist to check for updates and restart the server after a match when new updates exist?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:53 am
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JmZ
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Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 193
I would consider a script which slays comm-as-siege above a certain limit (e.g. 5v5).

I am against many scripts because the ones currently in existence are too strict (a piece of code can't reason over an action, everything matching some very simple over-matching criteria is considered actionable). So we either write better scripts than groentjuh, or we don't have them.

It is better to have a lenient script than an over-powered/over-matching one. If a script misses an action, a ref can deal with it. If a script takes action when it shouldn't have, it is too late.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:46 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 543
The biggest problem with that script is it SLAYS - why the fuck would you focus on punishment when you should just limit the units a (AO)(commander) can use. You guys really have NFI about game managment and development. But you should note that having these unrealistic restrictions based on your rank is a failing in the games balance, I personally think a commander should spawn w/e unit he/she wants - when you have 3vs3 makes more of a difference than 30v30 if the comm spawns siege - so wheres your logic there - cause and effect. Are you trying to prevent it or promote it?

You guys have been so focused over the years on how to punish campers and com/spawn/siege that you missed the point entirely. You need to learn from the millions of games that don't need refs to baby the game maybe?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:55 am
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Groentjuh
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Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 618
Location: World > Europe > Benelux > The Netherlands > The hague
djinghis wrote:
I personally think a commander should spawn w/e unit he/she wants - when you have 3vs3 makes more of a difference than 30v30 if the comm spawns siege - so wheres your logic there - cause and effect. Are you trying to prevent it or promote it?

The situation that is targeted by the rule is that a commander will spawn siege to kill that demo-running lego or to quickly spawn siege at a flag to prevent that from being captured. Therefore a rule was made to disallow commanders going siege.

However that is very restricting in 1v1 or smaller games. That's why it is allowed in smaller games.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:29 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 543
Groentjuh wrote:
djinghis wrote:
I personally think a commander should spawn w/e unit he/she wants - when you have 3vs3 makes more of a difference than 30v30 if the comm spawns siege - so wheres your logic there - cause and effect. Are you trying to prevent it or promote it?

The situation that is targeted by the rule is that a commander will spawn siege to kill that demo-running lego or to quickly spawn siege at a flag to prevent that from being captured. Therefore a rule was made to disallow commanders going siege.

However that is very restricting in 1v1 or smaller games. That's why it is allowed in smaller games.


The situation targeted by the rules is in question, but you failed to see my point that the rule should be in question and creating exceptions to a rules is fallible, especially posing complicated rules to the current set of referees who have trouble writing their own name.

Like gridfon I believe requested a while back, why not trial without the rule for a while, You'll find that demo runners who get frustrated are just not good players and ballista comms are not as effective shield camping with electify. And like I've heard countless times from new players about camping and comms apwning siege, "why does the game allow it?" if you're so concerned about 1 player on a team having limited units they're allowed to use (it even sounds stupid when I type it) then why didn't you request XR embed it into the code?

I've spawned siege so many times while refs were around to frag summoners and behes incoming my base and got away with it almost everytime, so surely the rule in its current state is hard enough to enforce let alone adding ridiculous circumstantial exceptions impossible to observe, validate and coordinate a consistent decision.

You write a server side script, it's easily circumvented - just impeach yourself - problem solved and you are no longer technically commander so an active ref should not have a problem with that right?

The way I see it, you resign you're a area officer (not commander) the whole game design is based around hybrid RTS/FPS, you have been retarding this concept with this rule for so many years now.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:38 am
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