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Excessive kicks
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 237
 Excessive kicks

I see a recurring theme of eLeMenT kicking people off the server for no reason, other than he thinks they will try to argue with him.

April 24: eLeMenT kicked Telvek, basically as a way to tell him that "you failed the trial". When Telvek came online and logged into his trial ref, eLeMenT told Telvek that he failed the trial, and subsequently kicked Telvek with minimal discussion and no reason or warning stated to Telvek. In response to comments from bystanders, eLeMenT told that Telvek would have spent an hour arguing about the failed trial, so he had to be kicked before that happens.
May 25: eLeMenT kicked Shapeshifter and Nii-Sama in a situation that eLeMenT escalated himself, by saying that he will kick anyone who has a problem with his decision to stop izi votes. Specifically, the taunting behavior of writing "next" in the chat in between the kicks (trying to provoke more people, and hence have a reason to kick them) is something that is wildly inappropriate for any ref to do.

Can we please get some feedback from JmZ, eLeMenT and refs on what can/will be done to make sure that refs use their powers more appropriately?

Just to make it clear, I entirely ignored today's situation in-game. I thought it was all wrong, but couldn't care less about arguing at that point. I don't exactly have a lot of sympathy for most of the three victims, and I would really prefer that they speak for themselves. But one thing I always hated is the widespread complacency in Savage when it comes to dealing with random ref abuses.

Today's demos are attached. The demos relevant to Telvek are available upon request (Telvek was kicked at the end of a 2h long gaome game, so the demo takes 60MB; and some follow-up discussion between the two happens in a 25MB large demo of a bunker game).

P.S. This is reflective of what I described about US servers back in this topic, and is as much a problem about JmZ as that about eLeMenT.
Gridfon wrote:
In terms of referees, your US server was the Wild West; your referees were basically strong-arming everyone into submission. Multiple great examples can be found here, and across many other newerth topics. Your past referee eLeMenT was recalling this in a random conversation just today.


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:12 pm
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eLeMenT
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Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 93
Location: Complaints Desk
Well, when all the talking doesn't cut it, that's what I resort to so they understand I'm a ref and that it's not up to them to make the rules, it's up to me to enforce them. A few bad apples don't seem to understand that refs have an authority over them. This is a server run by people who are volunteering to work for them, the admin is also paying out of his own pocket to run it.

It's quite insulting to me to get abused constantly by the same people, have them stack against me, buff against me and make me lose every single game as comm just because they don't like the fact that I'm a ref or the way I ref. You want to talk down to me and bully me endlessly, deal with the consequences. When mutes don't cut it and don't get a point across, harsher measures have to be taken to ensure that the offenses don't get repeated.

I'm a super friendly guy, but get on my bad side and constantly troll me and you will have some harsher measures taken on you. I volunteered for this and it's up to you to respect that, just as I respect you wanting to have fun.

We all respect you as players, no one wants to step over boundaries and we just want to do our job the best way we see fit, it's as simple as that. I don't want your drama, I want to play and will try my best to make this a pleasant experience for you as I work for you, not for me. I believe that's all there is to this discussion really, this was all about teaching a few people a thing or two about respecting those with more authority than them. When I was just a player, I didn't sit and constantly flame refs and whine, I might've had my disagreements but I kept them short and I kept them in game, and I never made enemies out of refs because I respected what they did and I appreciated it.

Game is dying, I take the comm seat unwillingly. Teams are stacked, I join the losing team. Someone trolls me, I give them officer when I comm. I do a whole lot more than type commands to ref. I get a lot of old school players messaging me because they don't want to play the same maps over and over again. I don't know about you but I don't want to play with a team full of phoes on izi every day. As you can see, giving people too much freedom is killing the game.

Some think that they are born with a silver spoon in their mouth but the reality is; playing on the server is a privilege, not a right. Respect the refs and say kind things to them every once in awhile, you will get it back tenfolds. I don't want your drama.

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:50 pm
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 237
As a former ref, nothing of this is new to me. I think I experienced most of it to a larger extent than you (in part, because more people were playing at the time). Lots of things are wrong about server admins and their ref systems, along with the entire community in general. I personally resigned from being a ref because I didn't want to be a part of a flawed system, but neither I could change anything (I tried).

But none of that is a reason to take your anger out by abusing largely innocent players. I see nothing in your text that justifies those kicks, except the fact that you're feeling entitled due to the suffering you get out of being a ref. Don't mix the part where you help the community with the part where you try to ruin someone's evening by kicking them for no other reason than trying to help (Telvek) or having an opinion (Nii-Sama).

Finally, none of the offenses deserved a kick. A mute for Shapeshifter was appropriate. Even a mute for Nii-Sama could be questionable. Telvek deserved no actions taken against him, unless I missed something important such as him being previously informed that he failed (according to your dialog with him, he was not informed).

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:36 pm
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eLeMenT
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Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 93
Location: Complaints Desk
You say the US was the Wild West but despite the refs acting the way they did, we were all friends and everyone had conversations. Give me one instance where EVERYONE was just chatting and playing on the EU server without hidden agendas. Yup, that's right, you probably couldn't. Very few are actually fun to talk to and joke around with. The only way we respected the EU community was the skill cap, not the community. There were very few I actually felt comfortable speaking to on the EU server, and it seems like things haven't changed.

People hold grudges for an eternity and are just not interested in being friendly with each other. Based on this, I guess you're right, I haven't experienced this as much as you have but instead of not being able to deal with the pressure, I will do something about it and deal with it appropriately. However, don't take credit away from my reffing, I'm not new to this.

I've been literally saying sorry to $lizer in PMs every time he gets online and he has not answered me once. All this for switching him to spec coz he made teams uneven by trying to help them? People constantly remind me why I'm a shit ref in their eyes. Honestly, I'd rather just gouge their eyes out instead of pretending to listen to their crap 24/7.

No my friend, I'm putting my foot down and they better start listening or I'm gonna kick them (if a mute isn't doing its job). That's my policy, and it's always been that way. They are not "innocent" and I don't "feel" entitled to kick them, I "am" entitled to kick them, and it's not only because I feel cornered or whatever. I'm a ref, they better start respecting who I am and what I do. By respecting me, you're respecting the server, as I represent the server (I and every other ref).

I told them I was gonna kick them if they kept arguing with me and talking shit to me and they did, escalated it might I add, so I did exactly what I said I would do, I didn't kick them out of the blue. This shows you how little respect they have for us and what we do.

Also you seem completely oblivious to the whole Telvek thing, the guy was using a ref password when he wasn't a ref so he got kicked for that.

Respect what I do (you don't necessarily have to respect ME), I'm not asking for much, I'm a ref, it's my RIGHT. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, I'm tired of petty feuds and arguments. I pretty much answered everything you wanted me to answer and that's the end of the discussion for me.

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:17 pm
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refabuseisreal
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Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 27
I already reported elements furious and unpredictable behavior a several times now. He apologized and Jmz personally told me that it will be taken care of his further actions and behavior. I was told that he got warned and he promised he is gonna act according to the rules in the future.
As we can see nothing changed so in my opinion its Jmz's turn to change his ref status. I read here about the similar situations I experienced with element, kicking players without a reason and not based on rules, but apparently on a lack of respect according to element. Yes refs should enforce rules (and not break them as you did today siegespawning as com), but they should not bypass them or play up as a dictator. And its everybodys own decision whether to respect you or not, you can't force anyone to. Especially not if you act yourself like a immature child on server while accusing other people in every situation but not yourself.

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:13 am
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 237
eLeMenT wrote:
Also you seem completely oblivious to the whole Telvek thing, the guy was using a ref password when he wasn't a ref so he got kicked for that.


This was on April 24th. Telvek still had access to Pulse's trial referee sub-forum (meaning access to the trial-ref password). There was no public information about him having failed the trial.

Quote:
Telvek has joined the game
17> ^clan 73538^Telvek> stop it Wrath
17> ^clan 73538^Telvek> dont spam
^clan 73538^Telvek has become referee!
17> ^clan 73538^Telvek> Mr.homewrecker stop it
17> ^clan 73538^Telvek> last warning
^900Referee Telvek insta-killed ^900Mr.homewrecker^w
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> telvek
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> you're not a ref
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> fyi
17> ^clan 73538^Telvek> apparently I am
17> ^clan 73538^Telvek> )
^900Referee eLeMenT has kicked Telvek!^w

~20 minutes later, after the kick timer expired.
Telvek has joined the game
33> ^clan 73538^Telvek> I am really curious on your explanation, eLeMenT
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> dont use t he ref password
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> you're not a ref.
33> ^clan 73538^Telvek> well jmZ's current ref state does say i am still ref
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> we all voted f2 on you.
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> jmz is just asleep somewhere
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> by all i mean all
33> ^clan 73538^Telvek> nontheless, I am still ref.
^900Referee eLeMenT has kicked Telvek!^w
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> little teenager arguing with me
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> love it
12> ^clan 42266^Gridfon> Was the 2nd kick required?
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> yeah he was gonna argue with me like there's no tomorrow
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> hence why we all f2ed him
3> ^clan 85625^djinghis> you're acting like a teenager eLeMenT

Telvek has joined the game
27> ^clan 73538^Telvek> I did not log into ref eLeMenT, so why the kick?
8> ^clan 85625^djinghis> don't be a fag eLeMenT
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> i was gonna mute u or kick u again but i guess idc, im out anyway
8> ^clan 85625^djinghis> I mean more so
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> yeah ur right
27> ^clan 73538^Telvek> so just a rage kick ?
6> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> telvek isnt ref guys so if he says shit like he's a ref, just ignore him
^clan 1548^eLeMenT disconnected
27> ^clan 73538^Telvek> so well fine no explanation
^clan 73538^Telvek disconnected


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:20 am
Last edited by Gridfon on Fri May 26, 2017 2:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 237
Quote:
A vote has been called // Hugo voted izi
18> ^clan 85334^ZeroTolerance> let Hugo comm izi
^900Referee eLeMenT has stopped a vote!^w
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> we just played izi
14> Hugo> eLeMenT Sad
19> ^clan 85591^Nii-Sama> eLeMenT so?
18> ^clan 85334^ZeroTolerance> so what
18> ^clan 85334^ZeroTolerance> we all want play izi
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> ill kick you if you have a problem
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> and im not kidding

A vote has been called // Shapeshifter voted to kick eLeMenT
10> ^clan 80790^Shapeshifter> Very Happy
^900Referee eLeMenT has stopped a vote!^w
24> ^clan 86917^KoKo> ^clan 80227^
17> ^clan 14626^Mad Max> lol
10> ^clan 80790^Shapeshifter> Fucking lunatic.
19> ^clan 85591^Nii-Sama> eLeMenT that would be ref abuse?
^900Referee eLeMenT has kicked Shapeshifter!^w
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> next

24> ^clan 86917^KoKo> damn bro
19> ^clan 85591^Nii-Sama> HAHA
19> ^clan 85591^Nii-Sama> eLeMenT triggered?

^900Referee eLeMenT has kicked Nii-Sama!^w
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> next

24> ^clan 86917^KoKo> wow
17> ^clan 14626^Mad Max> 'brainshifter'
24> ^clan 86917^KoKo> eLeMenT is angry
17> ^clan 14626^Mad Max> another executed by Kim Jung-El
13> ^clan 39107^Defacer> why k'ck
18> ^clan 85334^ZeroTolerance> kick me please
24> ^clan 86917^KoKo> man
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> sit and argue with people for an hour
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> izi was the last map
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> defacer - kick coz the same people argue with me every day for not letting them spam izi
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> then they start shittalking me and making me look like im a fool
13> ^clan 39107^Defacer> I know u right bro np
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> fuck muting, straight kick
8> ^clan 1548^eLeMenT> they'll learn
13> ^clan 39107^Defacer> shape is sometimes trolling refs


Is your cocky attitude in line with the respect you expect from the players? The repeated request for the "next" abuse victim does a good job reflecting your mindset there.
You were also the first to succumb to an extreme behavior by promising to kick people who have problems. I think you played a big role in provoking the immature responses. I see Shapeshifter's kick vote as a public "fuck you" statement towards your promise to abuse people. Likewise, compared to all of the above, Nii-Sama laughing about you being triggered is a rather innocent response, even though it's immature in isolation. There is no way he deserves a kick.

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:38 am
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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 523
I've provided lengthy and accurate posts with evidence before about this guy, obviously it does not sink in with jmz, So I just say this instead.


FUCK OFF ELEMENT

PS: your server has become more laggy that kingdom again, shame element sucked so much dick he's ref on that server too Sad

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:58 am
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bullet
Newbie poster

Joined: 09 Nov 2014
Posts: 77
I havent played much lately due to other things in life, but I'm just gonna drop by and say im not surprised - for element any complaint is drama and never legit. It's allways the community's fault that Element used his ref-powers outside the rules.


JMZ you should set stricter demands for who you recruit as referees, and all these situations and complaints wouldnt happen in the first place.


[/quote]

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:23 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 523
Yeah I see what you mean...

I'm currently muted and 2 refs are trolling me asking questions I obliviously can't answer - all this while jmz in online too. and drk still can't make a complete sentence not for the lack of trying Smile

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:25 pm
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 237
It has been nearly 10 full days since I posted my complaint. Let's get some discussion going.
If you agree with eLeMenT's actions, feel free to voice your opinion.
If you disagree with eLeMenT's actions and don't want to start a public fight against another ref, can I get the status of the internal discussion?

P.S. When and how Telvek was first informed that he failed his trial ref?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:13 am
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 523
The other night element locked myself, shapeshifter, elf, and 2 randoms to spec so he could build a base on IZI. I reconnected so I could actually play savage under the alias Mia, and went for his shield and was kicked. Just another example of an emotionally charged child who thinks everyone hates him (and now they do).

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:02 am
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