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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
There are so many flaws in what you say marb.

Beasts can reach you while immobilized.. you simply added a condition. ie. you must throw immobs a certain distance.

When I say "I've been using immobs a lot lately" doesn't mean "oh wow I picked up this game called savage and found an item called immobilizer", I've actually played for 8 years or so.

Now you're comparing relocator to leap?

You continue to miss the point, so I give up lol.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:22 am
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Marbello
Newbie poster

Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
Well, you're missing the point that your inability to throw precisely the immob doesn't mean that others can't do so either. So instead of learning, you're trying to take a shortcut. Youre doing the same thing here in this discussion, saying you don't like to continue.

I look forward to see another of your votes and seeing everyone else missing your points again Smile.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:49 am
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Asperhead
Newbie poster

Joined: 18 Oct 2017
Posts: 13
Ermh... I agree with Marb here. Immobilizers are relatively balanced. Leaping 50% while immobilized usually does not save the beast's ass nor allows it to kill the human that throw it (he can still block!).
I'd say you are a bit bored and picking fights for the pleasure of it, Djin.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:34 pm
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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
You can agree, but you can't argue - well you can but you would be wrong.

Immobilization

1.to make immobile or immovable; fix in place.
2.to prevent the use, activity, or movement of:
The hurricane immobilized the airlines.
3.to deprive of the capacity for mobilization:
The troops were immobilized by the enemy.

Being able to leap/jump while immobilized is not only wrong, it looks stupid and jittery, nothing to do with balance - I never said that. I'm not trying to convince you anyway, it's when ppl make arguments that are completely wrong and based on flimsy evidence that need correction.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:08 pm
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Asperhead
Newbie poster

Joined: 18 Oct 2017
Posts: 13
To help you with the immersion and the suspension of disbelief, you can call it "slower" (or the better English word, if any) instead of "immobilizer".

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:36 pm
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Marbello
Newbie poster

Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
So you're saying your proposition of increasing effects of immobilizer is partially based upon.. your English dictionary? Because the item should be named "partial immobilizer" in its current version? And further, because it isn't in line with your logic and .. looks stupid? And as you said initially because you are not able to use it - while others are?

FYI, I'd say you're right with your dictionary definition - if I'd be a black n white thinker. But words can have various meanings. For instance, if one is immobilized by fear, he or she can still move a little. It does mean that things are out of order but mustn't mean that things stop working completely.

Regarding your other arguments that you came up with to support your proposition, I've replied already.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:37 pm
Last edited by Marbello on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:39 am; edited 2 times in total
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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
Proposal: After a lot of testing, the variable is simply not accessible through state settings for leap (candodge) and I can't find a way to stop leap while immobilized. so this is the only thing I can think of. My guess is it was simply not made a global variable at the time when it seems like a kinda relevant variable in regard to this state.

Code:
stateedit imobilize
stateSet speedMult 0.400000


to

Code:
stateedit imobilize
stateSet speedMult 0.000000


So you can still leap but it's on the spot, jumpmult has zero influence on leap excepting the fact that it can increase your momentum slightly when immobilized.

As an additional note.

    You can't jump while snared.
    You can jump and leap at the 40% reduced speed while immobilized.
    You can't backfire snare.
    You can backfire Immobilizer.
    These two items are bugged when you hit certain areas of a unit, I've noticed that if you aim high around the head it's more likely to not work - the snare much like the cata ball can freeze mid air - I'm not sure immob has a projectile model, it's hard to see if it does. but both have a failure rate - intended, I'm not sure. Probably evident here...
    Code:
    objSet hitBuilding "bounce"
    objSet hitUnit "bounce"
    objSet hitWorld "die"


    I think it should die on unit as units are the target much like bullets, having it bounce off units and actuating only when it hits the ground near them is a little odd, this may or may not be the cause of the bug.

If I were to make a suggestion to the developers, it would be several changes.

    Change all references of imobilizer to immobilizer*
    Change Object settings of hitunit from bounce to die.
    Make "candodge" a global variable in state settings of "imobilize state".
    Statedit does not ping its editing state like objedit does, so if you for example stateedit immobilize (which is spelled correctly Wink), you are editing the wrong state as it doesn't show you "current values:" (I requested this 4 years ago)


It's the little things.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:50 am
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Marbello
Newbie poster

Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
djinghis wrote:
    You can't jump while snared.
    You can jump and leap at the 40% reduced speed while immobilized.
    You can't backfire snare.
    You can backfire Immobilizer.


Semi-correct but:
Marbello wrote:

Repeating myself, the game is in a relative balance with regard to immobilizers & snares (humans / beasts) and their relating counter methods. Both items give a powerful advantage, and both advantages can be reduced by opponents (via relocators or leaps).

This one might be hard to understand but human relocator nullifies the effect of snares. On the other hand, beasts leap reduces the effect of immobilizers. So, your proposition of deleting beasts ability to counter effects of immobs would actually further unbalance mechanics of the game.


Besides relocators, there are further methods to backfire snare (evading via jump/sprint is more likely to happen since humans rely mainly on distance weapons, once snare hit: block, distance shooting, immob of course and ultimately reloc's (..)).

ANYHOW, being able to jump is another counter method (or backfiring method if you prefer that wording..) that you found.
However, jump height is reduced by im(m)obilizers; and in addition, using jump reduces the ability to leap.
Therefore, recognizing jump as counter method still doesn't make it more powerful than the methods that humans have.

TLDR: Your proposition of increasing the power of immobilizers remains flawed since it would negatively impact game balance.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:35 am
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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
Marbello wrote:

TLDR: Your proposition of increasing the power of immobilizers remains flawed since it would negatively impact game balance.


My proposal never mentioned balance, and my last post was an amendment on my initial post in light of new findings of technical limitation (server side). Relocator nerfing while snared was a proposal I had a few months back (it was ignored) as yes it counters snare all too well, but counter tactics and over-all balance is not my concern. Immobilizer refinement is however, and you continually see my proposal as a game baking nerf when I assure it's not - I can safely assume you haven't even tested it.

But however if you want to talk about balance, i'll simply say 2 words that should solve this little argument.

Sac Rush.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:21 am
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