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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
 Community Rules (locked)
Proposal

Conduct

1(chat). Continual and persistent Racism, Sexism, Ageism and Religious Intolerance and Vilification in chat and/or naming will result in a mute, this is especially unacceptable when a player is trying to bypass the existing chat filter with contextually understandable wording i.e replacing letters with numbers or symbols. Furthermore, a player with clan tags/icons/banners or profile pictures deemed inappropriate will be required to change account or delete said content, and if this condition is not met, they will be kicked from the server.

2(votes). Players may not call votes that interfere with the game or targeted votes void of good reason. Reasons for targeted votes must be made clear in global chat. Votes without good reason may be stopped, and excessive voting will lead to a mute, this includes all votes.

Gameplay

1(over hill). Players are not allowed to use catapult or other trajectory weapons to shoot over terrain or built up areas that are not traversable. An exception to this rule is shooting over destructible objects ie. Grimm walls. Continual efforts to exploit in this manner will result in that player being kicked. If the opposing team loses buildings as a result, a referee may compensate the lost resources (stone/gold).

2(Boundary). If players find themselves outside of a maps defined boundary*, they must make way back to normal terrain immediately. Taking advantage of out-of-bounds routes like shooting from or cutting out large areas of the map will lead to a slay, and continual abuse of out-of-bounds will result in a kick.

*Defined boundary refers to the traversable pathing of a map, usually and technically the area of a map that workers can move within and also where it's build-able.

3(camping). Players who excessively* re-spawn as a siege unit of either race around spawning areas will be considered camping and slayed if a warning via chat from a referee is not adhered to.

*Excessive spawning is generally more than 2 occasions, however the discretion and judgement of the referee at the time must be respected.

4(on buildings).Buildings may be traversed to get to other areas However, players may not drop objects on buildings such as demolition charges, land mines and firewards, players may not stay on top of buildings (irrespective of how they got there) and must find their way down immediately. If players don't adhere to warnings issued by referees, they will be slain.

Commanding

1a(building gates). Commanders must not spam gates using the template, if a commander does not adhere to warnings to stop from a referee, a referee may destroy the entropy shrine.

1b(building on). Commanders must not build buildings on top of players or spawn flags to impede gameplay in an unnatural way. A referee may destroy said building, and if a commander continues to build in this manner, a referee may either impeach or lock them to spectators.

1c(building spawn). Commander that build spawning buildings that allows players to spawn out-of-bounds or over walls not ordinarily traversable must destroy said building immediately. A referee may slay spawners and or destroy said building without warning if the games outcome is visiably in jepody. Continuing to build in this manner will result in a referee either impeaching or locking them to spectators.

2(unit restrictions). Siege units are strictly forbidden for commanders, and if commanders use said units, they will be slain. If commanders persist in spawning siege, a referee may lock them to spectator or kick them from the server.

3(edicate). Commanders who destroy their own buildings to expediate their own demise may be subject to a non commanding period allocated by a witnessing referee for any length of time at the referees discresion not exceeding one day. Referees must be cautious as to the commanders motive, as they may be selling buildings as a last resort strategy to build elsewhere.
Commanders who leave their team without an appropriate communication or vote to assist that team in their absence will be subject to the same non commanding period. If this is seen as a blatent abandonment and the player is not seen for more than a day, the referee may enforce the non commanding punishment anew.

Spectating

1(restraint). Spectators must not reveal or announce strategy from their advantageous position, otherwise they will be muted without warning and or locked to spec.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:40 am
Last edited by djinghis on Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:26 am; edited 5 times in total
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Marbello
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Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
For reference, current G'n'G server rules

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:17 am
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Groentjuh
Site Admin

Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 618
Location: World > Europe > Benelux > The Netherlands > The hague
I believe this should not be a vote right now. I believe it would be wise to first discuss these rules for some time. This allows you to gather some feedback from others to further improve these rules. In a vote like this, you cannot changes these rules, without starting a new votes to change rules within this vote.

Also what will happen when "Something else" wins the vote? At that point neither these rules nor Groentjuh's server rules should apply until the something else is written. I believe in votes like these everything should be very clear.

I do agree that the rules do need to be changed, because I believe this vote might have passed. Right drk? Or did it not passed, because only 9 people votes?

Below I'm going to try and compare these rules sets:

These rules do appear in Groentjuh's server rules and do not appear in these rules:
Quote:

Players are not allowed to talk in a language except English.
- Foreign languages can only be used in global chat for no more than a few sentences. It is allowed to contact other people in your own language, afterwards please make use of /msg or spectator chat.

Players are not allowed to impersonate other players or use other players’ clan tags and/or icons.

Players are not allowed to run scripts or codes which directly or indirectly affect server performance.

Commanders are not allowed to bail.

Commanders are not allowed to spawn as siege units.

Referees are not allowed to use their powers solely for personal gain or to give themselves an unfair advantage over other players.
I'm not saying by that, that these rules should by in these rules. I'm just trying to clarify differences.

The other rules can probably be read in some way in theses rules or might be outdated.

djinghis wrote:
Conduct

1.(chat). Continual and persistent Racism, Sexism, Ageism and Religious Intolerance and Vilification in chat and/or naming will result in a mute, this is especially unacceptable when a player is trying to bypass the existing chat filter with contextually understandable wording i.e replacing letters with numbers or symbols. Furthermore, a player with clan tags/icons/banners or profile pictures deemed inappropriate will be required to change account or deleted said content, and if this condition is not met, they will be kicked from the server.

2.(votes). Players may not call votes that interfere with the game or targeted votes void of good reason. Reasons for targeted votes must be made clear in global chat. Votes without good reason may be stopped, and excessive voting will lead to a mute, this includes all votes.

Gameplay

1(over hill). Players are not allowed to use catapult or other trajectory weapons to shoot over terrain or built up areas that are not traversable. An exception to this rule is shooting over destructible objects ie. Grimm walls. Continual efforts to exploit in this manner will result in that player being slain. If the opposing team loses buildings as a result, a referee may compensate the lost resources (stone/gold).

2(Boundry). If players finds themselves outside of a maps defined boundry*, they must make way back to normal terrain as soon as possible. Taking advantage of out-of-bounds routes like shooting from or cutting out large areas of the map will lead to a slay, and continual abuse of out-of-bounds will result in a kick.

*Defined boundary refers to the traversable pathing of a map, usually and technically the area of a map that workers can move within and also where it's build-able.

2(camping). Players who excessively re-spawn as a siege unit of either race around spawning areas will be considered camping and slayed if a warning via chat from a referee is not adhered to.

3(on buildings). Players may not drop objects on buildings such as demolition charges, land mines and firewards, players may not stay ontop of buildings (irrispective of how they got there) and must find their way down as soon as possible. However, buildings may be traversed to get to other areas. If players don't adhere to warnings issued by referees, they will be slain.

Commanding

1a(building gates). Commanders must not spam gates using the template, if a commander does not adhere to warnings to stop from a referee, a referee may destroy the entropy shrine.

1b(building on). Commanders must not build buildings on top of players or spawn flags to impede gameplay in an unnatural way. A referee may destroy said building, and if a commander continues to build in this manner, a referee may either impeach or lock them to spectators.

1c(building spawn). Commander that build spawning buildings that allows players to spawn out-of-bounds or over walls not ordinarily traversable must destroy said building as soon as possible. A referee may slay spawners and or destroy said building without warning if the games outcome is visiably in jepody. Continuing to build in this manner will result in a referee either impeaching or locking them to spectators.

2(edicate). Commanders who destroy their own buildings to expediate their own demise may be subject to a non commanding period allocated by a witnessing referee for any length of time at the referees discresion not exceeding one day. Referees must be cautious as to the commanders motive, as they may be selling buildings as a last resort strategy to build elsewhere.
Commanders who leave their team without an appropriate communication or vote to assist that team in their absence will be subject to the same non commanding period. If this is seen as a blatent abandonment and the player is not seen for more than a day, the referee may enforce the non commanding punishment anew.

Spectating

1(restraint). Spectators must not reveal or announce strategy from their advantageous position, otherwise they will be muted without warning and or locked to spec.

_________________


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:33 am
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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
This is the discussion area http://server.groentjuh.eu/viewtopic.php?t=1009.

However, this is/was for pulse server and was a personal analysis of current rules, since then I've come to the conclusion that the format needed change and drawing comparisons of rule to rule is too complicated now that I've paraphrased large section and completely changed others.

If the format is in question - let me know.

Some of the new rules are obvious, but ofc I agree the rules I've left out are not as transparent, and would require some investigation.

If any of new rules are a concern - let me know.

If any of the old rules altered are of concern - let me know.


If any left out rules are of concern - let me know.


Having a rule by rule vote would take a considerable amount of time most of which , simply waiting for the very few who visit to vote and the trolls to obv vote the most belligerent option.
I' obviously want this in place as a rule set, but have realistic foresight that option 3 "something else" will be the winner. That at least tells me that the rules need some work and the old rules need change - that's the relevant data I'm after at this stage (nothing more).
And just like the admin of Pulse, I don't have high hopes that drastic change will take place (even if it's needed). So for now, it's pertinent information for my self and anyone externally who may care.

As it stands at the moment, Community doesn't have rules or refs yet, so I figure - start somewhere.

Also maybe worth a mention that I simply didn't whip this up in a 5 minute period of inspiration, it took a considerable amount of time and thought, effort id hoped was evident in the body of work itself.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:18 am
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
Oops, when you edit the original post - it deleted the poll? oh well lol

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:13 am
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drk
Newbie poster


Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 370
First of all thank you for proposal about the rules.
As for me, I'd make some changes:
djinghis wrote:
Players are not allowed to use catapult or other trajectory weapons to shoot over terrain or built up areas that are not traversable.

For example when a new player takes summoner and see that half of the shield is visible over the mountain. In this case a player is not guilty if he starts to shoot on it. It's more like a map's problems
g'n'g's rules say: "Shooting over hills with catapults, or weapons with similar characteristics, if the map design does not allow it" is better as for me.
djinghis wrote:
Players who excessively re-spawn as a siege unit of either race around spawning areas will be considered camping

+ Also I would mention about such places as a "narrow places with mist walls / teleport spawn locations (for example xr_mini in the waterfall)" - to forbid players to camp with a siege units in those locations.

+ (since we have the same players for years) I'd add a point about "A refferee can slay/kick an 'old' player without any warnings". We had tons of cases when a player exploits (and he knows about it) and in the same time says like "you can't kick me, you need to warn me".

+ Anything about "Commanders are not allowed to spawn as siege units"? From the other side I'm strongly up for making changes on the client side to block commanders from taking siege units at all.

I did not vote for the current rules. But I will support them with these changes. What do you think about it?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:49 am
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djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
drk wrote:

djinghis wrote:
Players are not allowed to use catapult or other trajectory weapons to shoot over terrain or built up areas that are not traversable.

For example when a new player takes summoner and see that half of the shield is visible over the mountain. In this case a player is not guilty if he starts to shoot on it. It's more like a map's problems
g'n'g's rules say: "Shooting over hills with catapults, or weapons with similar characteristics, if the map design does not allow it" is better as for me.


Like I said in the discussion topics, the wording does not make sense, but ofc I see your point and have seen it many times eg watershipdown.
Unfortunately there is no clear cut way to adjudicate flawed map designs. I actually think it's 3 parties fault.

1:The exploiter, who can see what should be obvious as an unintended exposure.
2:The commander for placing it there and not checking all sides.
3:The map designer for not making mountains sufficient height around key areas of base layout.

But look at it this way, if you sum a shield that has a slight gap in the mountains, it seems not too bad. reverse that and imagine a catapult shooting over the same mountain to destroy a heal spire. The latter seems worse but it is in fact the same exploit.
And keep in mind that the very nature of trajectory weapons are to shoot over objects, catapult/ballistic bow/trebuchet used to shoot over castle walls and even front line ranks. The rule as far as I'm concerned is a stop gap, until maps or the game receive the slight adjustment, so it never happens again, and avoid day long rule arguments.
This rule can be bolstered with requirements and definitions, but you can't leave too much to interpretation i.e "if the map design does not allow it" - that was one of my goals to eliminate grey areas. I think I'll revisit this with visual aid later.

drk wrote:

djinghis wrote:
Players who excessively re-spawn as a siege unit of either race around spawning areas will be considered camping

+ Also I would mention about such places as a "narrow places with mist walls / teleport spawn locations (for example xr_mini in the waterfall)" - to forbid players to camp with a siege units in those locations.


Again, this would add grey areas, unless there are specifics that are easy for players and referees to see, it would create a lot of questions like "why did you slay me here - it's not even narrow" or "I was not camping in the mist, I was being shot at - do you want me to move out and die?" goes without saying that the mist prop is a ridiculous concept (mist that blocks bullets) but I digress, if you can find clear cut wording that can describe these areas, thatn sure. Also, aren't "teleports" considered spawn areas? they are essentially flags without the loadout choice after all.

drk wrote:

+ (since we have the same players for years) I'd add a point about "A refferee can slay/kick an 'old' player without any warnings". We had tons of cases when a player exploits (and he knows about it) and in the same time says like "you can't kick me, you need to warn me".


Agree, I'll change the source post.

drk wrote:

+ Anything about "Commanders are not allowed to spawn as siege units"? From the other side I'm strongly up for making changes on the client side to block commanders from taking siege units at all.

I did not vote for the current rules. But I will support them with these changes. What do you think about it?


Well spotted, I was hoping to get away with that one Razz, I'm use to the American rules that allowed this and it was never a huge problem - borderline IMBA but it was the norm.
I think this rule has become cancerous to the community, as when refs are not around commanders do it all the time and when refs are around commander get away with it if they're quick. Besides being way too tempting and a logical course of action, it's just unnatural to impose a character restriction. Also as I posted somewhere else (re-entry timer), a much more elegant solution to this and also camping in general would compliment this exclusion of rule, and I'm not just being self indulgent, I do believe it would work.

Thanks for your input, I'll consider your points.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:02 pm
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Marbello
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Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
The initial post is a great starting point. But in its current form, its really hard to digest. What about getting rid of full sentences and advanced vocabulary? Keep it simple! bulletpointbrainchecksout

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:20 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
@drk replaced slain with kick.
@Asperhead (awaiting authorization for an account here) changed two instances of "as soon as possible" with "immediately" as discussed in game.
@Marbello Will take into consideration.

@Groentjuh, since I've deleted my poll accidentally, I'll think about your idea of smaller more precise polling, such as [comm siege] [yes] [no].

Added red font for "consequence" for ease of use.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:13 am
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Asperhead
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Joined: 18 Oct 2017
Posts: 13
drk wrote:
For example when a new player takes summoner and see that half of the shield is visible over the mountain. In this case a player is not guilty if he starts to shoot on it. It's more like a map's problems
g'n'g's rules say: "Shooting over hills with catapults, or weapons with similar characteristics, if the map design does not allow it" is better as for me."
Mostly agree. Problem with this is it leaves too much ambiguity for players/refs to argue about.

What about this?

"Shooting over non-traversable terrain is only allowed if there is a direct sight line to the objective" (bear my English, please).

Thus, regardless of the weapon (summ, mortar, catapult), shooting over a mountain to a shield he can see would be legit (and that can be easily checked by a ref by specting the attacker, and leaves no place for discussion), shooting a shield that he can't see would not be accepted, and a catapult shooting a sub that is not visible (because of a tree or a slope or a small bend of the terrain) but that you can walk there in a straight line would be also legit. Not perfect (still a bit of ambiguity, but less IMO).



drk wrote:
Also I would mention about such places as a "narrow places with mist walls / teleport spawn locations (for example xr_mini in the waterfall)" - to forbid players to camp with a siege units in those locations.
I would not allow any kind of camping with siege units. I've come to learn that the purpouse of a siege unit is to siege enemy bases (destroy enemy buildings). So if I spawn with a siege unit (even if it is a behe and I smack one or two legos near the sub I spawned in) I keep walking towards enemy bases. I don't stay still in any kind of choke points unless I'm waiting for some backup (a shaman to shield me) to overcome strong opposition. But all this leaves too much place for ambiguity and arguing so I would not change your suggestion.

What I would do is to remove altogether mist walls for the game, set a hard roof on the whole map to avoid any kind of shooting or traversing over mountains, and use different kind of walls or terrain configuration to achieve what lazy mapmakers got with mist walls.



Regarding the commander not spawning as siege, I assume that it is to avoid abuse against demorunner or saccers that get into your base and you kill them easily with a balli/behe. This should be forbidden to commanders as well as to players, but preventing commander siegespawn does not solve the problem with players siegespawning (that happens way more often).
On the other hand, a commander attacking an enemy base with siege unit causes no more harm than would create any other player doing the same in a totally legit attack.
So the no-commander-siegespawning is a counterintuitive and flawed rule.
Therefore, I would only enforce the rule of not siegespawning to kill attackers and then get back into the spawning point.

In the end, what I would do here is to impede (via script) any siege unit from getting back into any spawning point unless it has attacked an enemy building or maybe just until it dies.
Thus, a commander behespawning to kill a demorunner would be unable to get back into its commander seat until it walks all the way towards an enemy base or just kills himself (losing all its gold). That would probably be counterproductive to his team. And no referees would be necessary for this matter.

Blocking commander from taking any siege unit at all seems excessive to me. Many times I play in the morning with no more than 4 players online and it can be impossible to beat the enemy if you as commander can't siegespawn.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:57 am
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drk
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Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 370
Asperhead wrote:
On the other hand, a commander attacking an enemy base with siege unit causes no more harm than would create any other player doing the same in a totally legit attack.

In theory there could be cases when coms will excuse themselfs with a "I spawned with a siege bacause I was going to attack enemy's base".

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:58 am
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Asperhead
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Joined: 18 Oct 2017
Posts: 13
drk wrote:
Asperhead wrote:
On the other hand, a commander attacking an enemy base with siege unit causes no more harm than would create any other player doing the same in a totally legit attack.

In theory there could be cases when coms will excuse themselfs with a "I spawned with a siege bacause I was going to attack enemy's base".
The same excuse that a player ilegally siegespawning can use. That's why I suggest to prevent siege units from getting back into buildings until died or attacking enemy buildings. No idea if that is doable.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:10 am
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
I agree @asperhead. Wrote this on another thread a few days ago

djinghis wrote:
Groents script is simply awful...

Slaying on spawn is adding a step that is simply not necessary, instead it should simply [restrict] units available. Savage resurrection had this right idea (don't laugh) it's true. It allowed commanders to play as players with all units (the way it should be), the issue you always seem to look past is the reason commanders shouldn't spawn siege.

The first and and only reason is the top-down advantage, the vision no other player gets. What if instead of restricting the game, you think about a re-enter timer (like savage res) imagine a commander behe spawning and then has to wait 20 or 30 seconds before re-entering - would this not assist in siege camping overall too?
A commander spawning to defend (90% of situations) would be detrimental to that commander, not being able to command or respawn for a period of time and the thought of siege spawning would be mostly used for (10% of situations - offensive).

This may be beyond python capabilities server side, the whole spawn timing aspect needs an overhaul anyway, spawn times based on 30 second intervals is just an empty meaningless aspect. Well that's my rant.


Perhaps add a timer delay on all clients increased exponentially the bigger the unit on re-entering the building they just spawned from?

So a nomad would have 0 delay a savage 5 seconds up to a bali 15 and cata 20 mirrored across to beast equivalent units. So as the extreme example, a commander spawns behemoth but can't re-enter the sub they spawned at for 25 seconds.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:59 am
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Marbello
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Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 41
25 seconds or my sub/gar being down, I'd 100% take it at every opportunity - beast or human com. Especially at the time when behe's become available - late game - not a lot of commanding is necessary.

If anything, then this shall be only implemented as a temporary nerf for those regular players - 1 minute.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:09 pm
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drk
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Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 370
Unfortunately I am not able to make any kind of the timer or to block sub/gar entrance.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:01 pm
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