Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Posts: 237
RULE DISCUSSION - Staying on top of buildings I have noticed that nowadays no one cares (including refs) about players climbing on top of buildings and staying on top of them to attack. I suggested to allow this on multiple occasions, but I see no intelligible support for such change. So this post is (probably) intended to confirm that this is still not allowed.
First, remember the rule (all of the explanations marked in red are relevant to staying on top of buildings, in one or another way):
Skuggi wrote: 2. Players are not allowed to exploit the map or the terrain.
- This includes:
* Shooting over hills with catapults, or weapons with similar characteristics, if the map design does not allow it.
* Staying on top of a building to attack it or to gain unfair advantage by doing so. This can only be excepted if the roof of the specific building is directly and easily accessible, regardless of player race.
* Avoiding map limitations using glitches, e.g. getting over grimm's wall.
* Abusing the terrain to get to places other players can't get to.
* Utilizing damage blow-back (i.e. being hit by a behemoth) to reach otherwise unreachable areas. In case a player finds himself in such a spot he is to take the most direct route the same way back.
Some more explanation from internal ref Q&A:
Skuggi wrote: Is it allowed to stand on buildings?
If it's possible to get on top of a building by conventional means (walk, jump or
leap), it's always allowed to stay there to attack or camp or repair.
If it's only possible to get on to a building by 'inching your way up' it's not allowed to stay on top, but it's allowed to walk over the building (e.g. on a sac run).
If it's only possible to get there after being hit by a behemoth, it's not allowed to stay on top, but it's allowed to walk over the building.
Is it allowed to place a demo on top of a building?
Referring to the previous answer, it is allowed to place a demo on top of a building if anyone can easily get up there without help. Players are not allowed to place a demo on top of buildings if the got there by exploiting or after being hit by a behemoth. If you see someone attacking a building when "illegally" staying on top (and not about to go down) he should be slain right away to prevent more damage. In general players should be warned and kicked if they repeat it after a warning.
Finally, some out-of-context quotes:
Gridfon (replying to Feathers) wrote: A more important situation covered by this rule is when a lego shimmies on top of a beast building and stays on top until the building is dead. Currently, this is not allowed. Staying on top of buildings is only allowed if one can get up without shimmying.
The problems about the above case are (1) I haven't seen refs that care, and (2) it can be hard to verify whether "get up without shimmying" is true in each particular case. Regarding (2), as a ref, you can of course walk to the building and try to get on top to check it, and get elec-buffed instead. Or you can slay the lego just in case...
Gridfon (replying to Groentjuh) wrote: Regarding (2), the human buildings are never a problem. The usual problem is that we always have demo runners living on top of T2 buildings. Many maps have a lifted terrain. Just a random example from a map this is being played right as I write this: http://i.imgur.com/qIOlaMt.jpg (I can't tell whether one can simply jump on top of arcana or nexus at once, just by looking at it; so I can't make an immediate decision to slay or leave the demo runner). Similar terrain can be found on anvale and on a number of other maps.
One of the reasons why we nearly never notice this problem in T1 bases is because T1 commanders have to build good bases. Letting beasts walk on top of buildings will probably end in a dead shield and a lost game. T2 commanders have no shield towers to secure so they can often drop buildings more carelessly (yes, they do want to secure healing spire... but then again, T2 comms are often comming T2 for the exact reason that they are not experienced enough to succeed in T1).
Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:21 am
Last edited by Gridfon on Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 Sep 2014 Posts: 523
I've said it before and i'll say it again. this can all be prevented via server settings (tested and proven)
Code: set p_shimmyBuilding 0 //Allow building shimmying exploit (using FWD key on/off when stuck allows climbing building)
set p_shimmyTerrain 1 //Allow terrain shimmying exploit (using FWD key on/off when stuck allows climbing terrain)
set p_steepSlopeDecel 0.1 //Set deceleration rate to counter steep slopes exploit (speed is multiplied by this value each frame)
The second setting I think prevents getting stuck, and these settings have worked well for my server in the past.
It is true that refs don't act on this rule, unless they are commander or right near it, visual thing I guess. I see refs do it and then jump off, but not before they take out half a sub mind you . But as I said, its all preventable.
Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:06 am
Joined: 09 Nov 2014 Posts: 77
My 5 cents:
Assuming the rule is that only walkable rootops are legally allowed to stay on, or move over- beasts will in some cases be able to move to buildings humans cant move to, because of leaping and leap + spacebar. This raice the question; "does leaping counts as walking?"
I think it was mohican who implemented the anti-shimmying code. However, If im not mistaken, it was active for some time before it was turned off because it ruined shield saccing possibilities for beasts heavely (there's almost impoosible to sac a shield without shimmying a bit, if base is well built).
My person opinion on this is that shimmying was never inteded to be a part of the game, but savages map features isnt well developed and we gotta use and adapt to what we have. It's also a part of the skillset of many players today, take a look at DA player toxic for instance, he's known for his shield-saccing skills. I personally think it should be allowed, as long as both races have the opportunity to shimmy up to the building, this includes staying there and attacking. Only expetion is camping up there, with ranged. Repairing is fine, imho.
Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:18 pm
Joined: 25 Sep 2014 Posts: 523
Should it be possible to stutter up the side of terrain and buildings in a false looking way just to penetrate a "well built base"? to sac a shield. Don't forget that some maps, you can shimmy up the lair/sh in this same fashion, and being a mapper let me tell you that placing a SH/Lair is difficult to avoid this as the collision boxes are not visible.
I think preventing players getting where they don't belong is the best and easiest solution, how is a ref going to see the entire map at all times, why complicate matters?
Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:24 am
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