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SOMA kicked half of server
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JmZ
Newbie poster

Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 193
Hi elendil, thanks for reporting this.

It seems the two of you had a disagreement of sorts.

Its difficult for a ref to decide what action to take in a situation where a player is being difficult with them (in general, not judging your specific case here). Try not to point the finger at SOMA here, though, he did his job as he thought was best. You and I know that the duration of the kick will have given you time to cool down, so its not all bad.

However, we will try harder to avoid having to resort to a kick in future. This is the fault of me, not the refs, for not helping them understand why.

I will discuss what happened with the refs and try understand both sides with more context.

I am counting on you to do your part too, relax and try get along better with SOMA if you can : )

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:40 pm
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Elendil
Newbie poster

Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 36
JmZ wrote:
Hi elendil, thanks for reporting this.

It seems the two of you had a disagreement of sorts.

Its difficult for a ref to decide what action to take in a situation where a player is being difficult with them (in general, not judging your specific case here). Try not to point the finger at SOMA here, though, he did his job as he thought was best. You and I know that the duration of the kick will have given you time to cool down, so its not all bad.

However, we will try harder to avoid having to resort to a kick in future. This is the fault of me, not the refs, for not helping them understand why.

I will discuss what happened with the refs and try understand both sides with more context.

I am counting on you to do your part too, relax and try get along better with SOMA if you can : )


Hi Jmz, thank you for your answer.

I cant undestand why you see my guilty for being kicked two times in a row? Can you please tell me what I did wrong? Had I argued with some in incorrect way?

Why I should calm down? I came to game with a good mood, and was kicked without any reason, warning, and without any rules violation from my side.

The most sad thing for me that you continue to supporting soma and you don't even try to get an explanation of his actions.

Of course it's your server and you are able to rule it in your way.
But for me it isn't acceptable to play with unpredictable refs as soma, so until he is ref I wont play savage on your server. Dont want to have my rest time be spoiled with unadequate ref who kicks without any reason.

Lets hope EU server wont die like US did.

Thanks for everyone who supportem me in some way in this discussion.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:56 pm
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soma
Newbie poster


Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 314
to avoid any trouble and enjoy the game with a (good mood) stop spoil other players mood. whether in this server or any other servers. you can also ask all players in-game how they're enjoying the game without getting kicked.
why you didn't forget ref Kick action till now, same time you forgot all your shit done in last days without single action from me?
why you didn't forget ref kick action and you forgot all the good actions done for you and others in last days?

you can play savage whenever you like no one is forcing you/me, but try to complain/communicate in-game in a decent way, like i believe you're +18, good enough to spend time talking with you to understand!! hope so.

I have more than 5 demos, 3 of them is good enough that you insult and argue with your special dirty way in GK and pulse without even pointing a single talk to you. i do appreciate if you stop your childish way next time to run and cry when a serious action done with you.

we (refs) are not joining the game to read your shit comments/ways with others/us to spoil our mood, we're joining for the same reason that you all joined for, any single ref power done, its happen for a reason. and ppl like you they will think twice before spoil other players mood,i hope you'll understand so next time can save you/our mood.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:04 am
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Elendil
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Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 36
soma, your reply show only that you still can't give any explanation to your actions
I'm not going to reply you anymore until you explain line-by-line what I violated which lead to two insta kicks

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:01 pm
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Trigardon
Newbie poster

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 374
I wasn't aware that Pulse has an kick-on-sight list...

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:14 pm
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soma
Newbie poster


Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 314
look like its hard for you to understand

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:09 pm
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Gridfon
Newbie poster


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
Elendil, the last time I was online (a couple of weeks ago on kayin) you started the game by participating in a friendly racist banter with Captain Kenway and Rin. Then you spent the second part of the game repeatedly trying to mute T1 comm because he spammed kick votes against exploiters from T2 (Captain Kenway and Seven, your team mates). All refs were obviously offline. I saw you voice no complaints against exploiters. I saw you spam "f2" in T2 team chat after exploiters killed multiple shields and T1 wanted to draw. I suspect you did your best to keep exploiters online.

Whereas when the refs are on and exploiters are off, you spend a lot of time trying to annoy refs for no reason. Sometimes you want to enforce non-existent rules, and don't accept ref's attempt to explain the rule to you. Sometimes you have unrealistic expectations from refs, and don't accept any "excuses". Sometimes you invent more ridiculous reasons to argue. Remember the game when I "probably cheated" redstone using my ref when I commed T2 and you played in T1?... It's not just refs who are annoyed, the entire server has to read your complaints all the time.

If you want to be a Social Justice Warrior, at least try being one at all times... not only when it's convenient to you and your team. And try to be an objective Social Justice Warrior, not an emotional one.

No ref should ever do what SOMA did, but then I wonder - may be Elendil is eligible for an exception from being treated fairly, along with subjects like Rin and Captain Kenway?...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:03 am
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The Raging Asparagus
Newbie poster

Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 121
With all do respect Gridfon, you play once every 6 months and you claim to see "patterns" or "hypocrisy" in SOMA's behavior.

I am playing almost 2 years now at least 4-5 times a day, at least 4-5 hours a day (and I've been playing Savage since 2005 at least) and I can tell you that SOMA is no different than other refs such as drk and 3dman which are usually using ref rules in a strict manner when they see fit (usually when it's the opposite team breaking the rules).
Actually he is much more fair than them usually.

Picking on a specific ref might be justified if he is abnormal relative to other refs but I think otherwise.

This should not be personal issue with SOMA, he usually helps preventing exploits and kicks flamers (and I can tell you that Elendil pmed me more than once "fuck you" just because of using elec to prevent him saccing tech).

I would agree Stringer is presenting a better standard of reffing as far as it relates to tolerance (and kicking over insults) and I would wish more refs to be like that.. but reality is different.

Gridfon you were a ref, and when you stopped being a ref I saw you behe camp and spawn siege as comm (about two years ago). Nobody is perfect..

bottom line,
If you want to change refs behavior it should not be by singling out SOMA since in my opinion he is in alignment with other refs.
There should be a document describing what are "appropriate" punishments for breaking a rule.
Something like Stringer wrote in his post.
But it has to be obliged by all refs and not a recommendation post.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:05 am
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Gridfon
Newbie poster


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
The Raging Asparagus wrote:
With all do respect Gridfon, you play once every 6 months and you claim to see "patterns" or "hypocrisy" in SOMA's behavior.


Hey TRA, my post was about Elendil, not about SOMA. (Half of the last sentence was about SOMA's kicks, but not about SOMA as a ref). Just to be clear, I don't support SOMA as a ref, but I had a lengthy conversation with him in June. I can see his point of view on things we disagree about, and I pretty much promised to leave him alone. That's about it.

The Raging Asparagus wrote:
Gridfon you were a ref, and when you stopped being a ref I saw you behe camp and spawn siege as comm (about two years ago). Nobody is perfect..


Hah. Those are misguided observations.
I never siege spawned as comm (see [1.a]). I was the ref who was instant-kicking players that were siege spawning as comm in 2013, without a warning, just to be consistent about how I ref. Including players who were not generally known for siege spawning as comm, and including my own clan mates (e.g. MarchRisker). I know that I took it well over the top (even though, ridiculously enough, I had support of all refs that cared to discuss this). I am never acting on my emotions in-game, and you will never see me siege spawning as comm myself after my past deeds.

[1.a] Even though the rules are stated unconditionally ("11. Commanders are not allowed to spawn as siege units."), for a long time refs had an internal agreement to allow siege spawning on "empty" servers. You obviously won't sit in specs observing 1v1 game and slay both players when they attempt to spawn a siege unit... What an "empty" server means depended on a specific ref; for me that was generally "you can spawn as siege if your team has at most 3 field players" (some of your 3 players could be noobs that don't know anything about the game yet). Since this is "not in the rules", I always tried to tell in chat that "comms, you can spawn siege as long as your team has <=X players, I won't ref it". I nearly never comm myself, and even when I do, I always hesitate to use this rule exception myself (holding myself to higher standards than anyone else). If I ever did, you can be damn sure I spammed the chat to make sure no one is against it, regardless of whether I was a ref at the time. (What was the conclusion there... ah yea, I'm perfect!).

[1.b] The script on G&G was also designed to auto-slay comm siege spawners only if the server is not "empty" but I believe it never worked correctly.

[1.c] Back in the days, most of the refs and players were aware of this rule exception. Nowadays, I believe that most of the refs don't know about it anymore and will slay even on empty servers. I have seen this happen a number of times. So it's safe to say this rule exception no longer works. Causing some confusion to players that still remember how it used to work, and not being able to tell when/how this change happened over time. Even if (say) Jegenrapo is the other comm and we both agreed that we can spawn sieges (it's easy to agree about stuff like this with Jegenrapo), I have no guarantee that (say) Stringer won't join and start slaying me in the middle of the game "because rules". In fact, I had exactly this situation once, although it featured other refs.

---

And regarding me siege camping at spawn points -- no comments. Smile I do it very rarely, but you could potentially see me siege camping [when I was no longer a ref], yeah. Everyone does it at some point or another, in part because the rules are too vague. I always believed that this rule is not effective and should be removed.

But since we're here, let me explain some rules anyway:
* Siege camping when all of your tech is down = allowed. More precisely, ballista camping is fine if your shield is dead and your base is clearly about to die (even if you still have lots of tech remaining... but this one may depend on a specific ref).
* Siege camping a choke point away from a spawn point = bad gameplay, but allowed.
* Behe spawning to protect sub is perfectly legit at least once per game, for each player. Even if each of my 20 team mates already behe spawned once to kill a demo runner, I am still allowed to behe spawn once. I am not accountable for the actions of my team mates. (To take it to an extreme, may be I just joined the game, and I have no idea who spawned behe before). This is the part that most players and some refs don't seem to understand for some reason.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:15 am
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The Raging Asparagus
Newbie poster

Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 121
 

I didn't see you meant Elendil!! sry i'm retard as hell it seems.
I fully agree with you then

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:55 am
Last edited by The Raging Asparagus on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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Trigardon
Newbie poster

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 374
Where's the TL;DR version?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:57 am
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The Raging Asparagus
Newbie poster

Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 121
Trig, See my last post (indicating my mistake) Smile

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:58 am
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Trigardon
Newbie poster

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 374
Yes, I'm aware of that.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:59 am
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Telvek
Newbie poster


Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 185
Agree with your statement about Elendil, Gridfon.
However (as trig subconscious mentioned yet) there is no kick on sight on pulse.
Which means you still need a reason to kick any player, even if this player is known as an exploiting, insulting dick^^ (no hard feelings elendil)
I don't wanna defend Elendil, I am still just curious about the reason for the kicks.
Well anyways. Lets see what the Pulse refs think abot the topic.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:21 am
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soma
Newbie poster


Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 314
Thanks for all who replied, and i do respect all your vision, however i see some players may still argue for nothing.

For Elendil: please try to follow jmz and Gridfon advise and as i said you can play where/when ever you want but just stay a way from troubles like we all do.

For Telvek: again you don't have to know/ask until this topic is related to you. we (ref) don't have to send demo or to explain reasons to 3rd person who can't make any changes for a topic.

for me this topic is already closed the day server admin replied to Elendil, you don't have to worry about what is next, this will be handled between (SRV admin& refs) and ofc it will be for better Smile

Have Fun.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:56 pm
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