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Re: April Changes & Concerns about Element as a referee
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
 Re: April Changes & Concerns about Element as a referee

JmZ wrote:
- Team switching rule discussed with god refs (regarding recent complaints, this should no longer occur outside the rule's exception)

This is too ambiguous. How strict are the refs supposed to enforce the rule, as opposed to using common sense? The answer sounds obvious to me, but let's clear this up before this turns into another ref complaint.
* Case 1. My comm has a bad day and closes all my buffs&gold just to annoy me. I want to swap into the enemy team. Is that ok?
* Case 2. The team numbers are roughly the same (e.g. 17 vs. 20 players) but one team is heavily stacked, pretty much farming the other team at spawn now. The game is largely decided, but the losing side might still hold on for 5 minutes. I swap into the losing team in a futile attempt to "even" the teams (and get farmed). Is this allowed?

JmZ wrote:
- Old ref applications dealt with

Tryton has been waiting for a decision since December 2016. Did he get one now? Brad Troika withdrew his applications after not getting a decision for 3 weeks. Telvek waited more than a month. Looking through past ref applications, the above examples are not exceptions. Many people will find it faster to get hired by a major software company than get a referee on Pulse. Are you going to do anything to significantly speed up the processing of referee applications?

Request: make sure to answer every single referee application. Say whether it was accepted/declined in a timely manner; otherwise tell why there is a delay and when the person should expect a decision. Groentjuh's team has been able to do this very consistently for many years; learn from them.

JmZ wrote:
Several complaints were also discussed internally, apologies were made for some and misunderstandings cleared up for others.

Am I correct to assume that you are still working on resolving complaints about SOMA?

JmZ wrote:
Anyhow, consider this topic done. Element made a few minor mistakes, as did the players involved in complaining about him. Both sides have said this, so instead of debating over each other, try help each other out. Element's actions have been discussed internally and he will try change a few things about how he refs in the near future.

Request: can you provide details to non-refs about what you discussed and what were your conclusions? It is not sufficient to tell us that you discussed "something". Out of the numerous complaints by Bullet&Co, I find that in some cases eLeMenT abused his referee powers, and in some cases the people complaining were simply over-reacting. Normally, you would be expected to post your judgement on every abuse report, to set expectations for future cases. But you were gone for so long that now it's just easier to briefly tell us which (probably, very few) of the complaints you discussed and what was ruled about them.

JmZ wrote:
The largest problem has always been lack of constructive discussions. I watched a "complaint" occur in-game yesterday, it lasted an hour and consisted of several players essentially ranting, raging and arguing over each other. This is far from constructive, it would work out better for all of us if, when you disagree with someone or something, you raise it in a mature manner and discuss why you think a different path should have been taken.

It's hard to be constructive when the referee system lacks management. When people come to post here and not get responses for months at a time, they snap:
The Raging Asparagus wrote:
Let's be honest though..
nobody cares about this forum.
nobody cares about the shit refs.
nobody cares about the complaints.

we are 3-4 "active" members here.. raising issues with ourselves and answer to one another.. this is not affective.

NOBODY GIVES A DAMN.

I hope this will be my last message in this forum.

Not just TRA. Good luck convincing the community that constrictive discussions are still possible.

JmZ wrote:
But never forget, my experience running such servers measures far beyond that of any other admin, now or in the past (except DJ).

You are certainly capable of hosting a server that remains online for many years. But in terms of referee management, you're way behind any reasonable expectations, compared to other EU servers. Groentjuh can claim much more experience in actually being able to process applications before people give up waiting, and to resolve conflicts before they escalate too much.

In terms of referees, your US server was the Wild West; your referees were basically strong-arming everyone into submission. Multiple great examples can be found here, and across many other newerth topics. Your past referee eLeMenT was recalling this in a random conversation just today. I was not a victim of US refs myself (besides one irrelevant case), but I saw many hilarious situations involving other people. I still remember how I kept on accumulating random abuse demos, and having long conversations where you would tell me that you don't care about it; that I should not bother doing anything with demos. Your best explanation was that you belong to US community and you know better, whereas we -- "the EU players" -- don't understand anything about it and will not be taken seriously. Well, guess what...

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:25 am
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drk
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Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 362
Re: April Changes & Concerns about Element as a referee

Gridfon wrote:
* Case 1. My comm has a bad day and closes all my buffs&gold just to annoy me. I want to swap into the enemy team. Is that ok?
* Case 2. The team numbers are roughly the same (e.g. 17 vs. 20 players) but one team is heavily stacked, pretty much farming the other team at spawn now. The game is largely decided, but the losing side might still hold on for 5 minutes. I swap into the losing team in a futile attempt to "even" the teams (and get farmed). Is this allowed?

Imo: it's not a news that you can't mention about all the cases in the rules (a lot of if-then-else). And I think that such situations should be resolved by a common sense. Ref should understand what was a purpose of such team switching.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:50 am
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Brad Troika
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Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 45
Re: April Changes & Concerns about Element as a referee

Gridfon wrote:

Brad Troika withdrew his applications after not getting a decision for 3 weeks.


While I appreciate being mentioned and the lack of answer was a factor in my withdrawal it wasn't the main issue.

Gridfon wrote:

Request: can you provide details to non-refs about what you discussed and what were your conclusions? It is not sufficient to tell us that you discussed "something". Out of the numerous complaints by Bullet&Co, I find that in some cases eLeMenT abused his referee powers, and in some cases the people complaining were simply over-reacting. Normally, you would be expected to post your judgement on every abuse report, to set expectations for future cases. But you were gone for so long that now it's just easier to briefly tell us which (probably, very few) of the complaints you discussed and what was ruled about them.


This is in the same vein as to what I suggested to you yesterday. While I agree that the complaints surrounding element are inflated that does not mean that there are no valid criticisms against him that shouldn't be addressed. Ending a complaint thread by providing the results of the referees' discussions and your judgement would be a visible and (somewhat) transparent way of handling things that would show us that complaints are taken seriously. If the referee made a mistake, they could also admit it in the thread and apologize.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:23 am
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 543
[quote from myself on that bree thread]

So let me get this straight - Slinky came back and apologized?
He was kicked for poor sportsmanship for 5 minutes and learn t from his mistake. So the system works???
Or is this just a blog for no life players who don't like a person and want to bash like cowards from the safety of there keyboards. If any ref shows an aptitude for interpretation or discretion with rules and keeping a server clean of poor sports its Breeewsky.

Thx for deleting my original post darkstar. PS I haven't seen toxic for a few days?


Although my wording sucked, I still agree with this, having being present that game and knowing slinkys game style. if it were for more than 5 minutes, id disagree though.

PS: getting kicked for five minutes is different than being gangbanged by 2 refs talking about raping your mother while you're muted you think?
PPS: JmZ seems to have automated responses these days that all bake down to saying "the matter is being discussed internally" and nothing ever amounts from it...

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:15 am
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The Raging Asparagus
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Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 122
BTW, I didn't get an answer (in my thread) to my Pulse ref application for more than 6 months now.
I did however approach SOMA after 3 months or so to be informed that my vote didn't pass.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:07 pm
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
drk wrote:
Imo: it's not a news that you can't mention about all the cases in the rules (a lot of if-then-else). And I think that such situations should be resolved by a common sense. Ref should understand what was a purpose of such team switching.

I am not too worried about the common sense of old EU refs. However, the team switching rule was enforced strictly and without exceptions on US. All even votes during the game were stopped by refs, and so on. There was a complaint against eLeMenT about team switching recently (I did not watch Bullet's 60min demo, so no idea whether reasonable or not). And JmZ told something ambiguous that can be interpreted that you can only switch according to the written exception ("this should no longer occur outside the rule's exception"). So I ought to make JmZ explicitly clarify this.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:40 pm
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JmZ
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Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 193
# Team switching

The rule exists as it has for the last 10+ years. A ref made a mistake by switching recently, outside of the rule. It should be enforced as is stated in the rules.

However, as with all non-harmful things, sometimes a per-case exception can be made (though rarely). Consider if two teams near enough completely agreed a player can switch, then doing so is in everyone's best interest and can likely be tolerated.

# Ref applications

The people you mention have known their decision for some time now, the threads are long since dead and no response is needed. In future, every application will be responded to with the result.

# SOMA

SOMA was involved in a large amount of troubling situations. For this reason, he did take what was pretty much a short break from ref. He has now returned and should be fully active again, there is nothing more to work on. His performance will be monitored for the near future and he will hopefully be a strong part of our team.

# Element

What we discuss internally shouldn't always be public knowledge, however I do realise you forum-regulars don't really have a response to any of it other than "a discussion was held". Element apologised to several people and was warned for a couple of actions, he accepted that he made a mistake and is trying to build on that to avoid it in future.

It will help a lot, for all refs, if people raise a disagreement/complaint without triggering drama/debates/rants. None of those three things are really constructive in savage, so I would recommend in future you try to give the ref suggestions of how to do better. They will listen.

If you want to know more about a specific decision/discussion, find me in-game.

# Constructive discussions

I have been absent for some time, management was lacking during this time, unfortunately. A few things have changed over the past day or two to help improve communications between refs, so a lot of this should improve (as all refs are part of "management").

As for forum responses, unfortunately this place easily spins threads out of control and offtopic so it becomes substantially more difficult to respond to the original issue. Due to this, some go unanswered as the original point is long lost. I will try respond more from now on, as will the refs, but its the responsibility of the community to also produce less dramatic threads.

# The rest

The US refs were some of the best I ever had. You will never agree on this, so there is nothing to discuss here. You cannot compare the two, the communities differed far too much to even try. You did experience a lot of trouble there, and complained a whole lot, but from the US point of view, we would recommend you simply go play EU instead.

djinghis: the automated responses are the result of the same people posting the same things persistently. These things do get discussed, but you're very likely to get an automated-like response telling you that, than an in-depth tailored one.

Any other questions, bother me in-game.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:39 pm
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