Groentjuh's Server Forum Index Groentjuh's Server
 Forums of Groentjuh's server 
 CalendarCalendar   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   DownloadsDownloads 
 RegisterRegister   Log inLog in 
The time now is Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:32 am
All times are UTC + 0
View posts since last visit
View unanswered posts
Calendar
 Forum index » General Discussion » Pulse's Server Forums
Regarding the recent complaints
Moderators: Pulse's moderators
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topicMark the topic unreadView next topic
Page 1 of 5 [63 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Author Message
JmZ
Newbie poster

Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 193
 Regarding the recent complaints

There are a few threads regarding some events in game, most of these threads overlap in some way so have been locked and this made the point of discussion.

The following three events are the primary ones in question:

- Ref acquiring mmbow through python commands
- Telvek being kicked for logging in as ref
- Kicks occurring for things some of you believe are not kick-worthy

---

First of all, Telvek's kick. This was a very simple mistake, there had been an internal vote for his god ref and that vote failed. Shortly after that, Telvek logged into ref and was kicked for it (as it was assumed he was no longer ref). This was pretty much a failure in communication, as I hadn't yet confirmed removal of ref and the refs weren't sure of that. In fact, he hadn't yet lost ref so should not have been kicked, but it was just miscommunication on my side.

---

Ref acquiring mmbow through ref commands... I will most likely look into disabling this outside of warmup if possible. We will see what i can do, as most of those commands have no 'legitimate' use once the game begins.

Element is not the only ref who has used python commands outside of warmup. On this server or any other. Either way, I should be stricter about when such commands can be used, because, while they are fun commands, they do tend to cause trouble in-game. I will look into this.

---

The real, main issue here is the fact that some of you believe many kicks are not justified. Meaning lesser actions could have been used and probably should have.

We can safely say that most, if not all kicks have had reasons but a lesser action could have probably achieved the same goal: preventing it from continuing or happening again.

Element has done a very good job in explaining everything he can on the forums, and in-game. He has had an explanation for pretty much every action, even if you disagree with it.

So, again, the actual issue seems to be disagreement on what kind of action to take, rather than if to take an action. Or disagreement between refs and players on if someones behaviour really did warrant an action.

----

For that reason, I will be pushing to have all refs (not only element) to try kick less often, as a last resort. Almost all situations can be resolved with a mute, switchteam, etc. Almost all situations can be deal with in words, in fact. We should very rarely have to kick, only really when a repeat offender simply won't stop (or something extreme happens).

In addition to this, I ask you, the players, to do your part and stand up against those who go out of their way to cause these situations. I have been dragged into many long debates about very insignificant topics just because a ref and a player dislike each other; it is personal. Personal issues do not belong here or in game, and personal issues definitely should not result in players spending their days trying to provoke and "catch out" refs (yes, this unfortunately is a thing).

These refs go out of their way, using their spare time to make the server playable for you and to keep peace where needed. It is not a simple task and it often [unfortunately] results in them having to spend their days in spec and on the forums rather than in-game. I think it is truly disrespectful how some of you so childishly try to start petty drama for the sole purpose of dragging players from an otherwise fun game into a stressful debate. I have seen players try their best to provoke refs, and spend their time watching every little action, every word and every movement a ref does; just so they can find something else to debate about. These people who choose to push this provocation are the reason others cannot enjoy the game they once did, not the refs.

Show some respect to each other for once. This is a small community, a small game, the last thing we need is some completely useless divide between us. I suggest you aim to grow the game, not kill it. To many of you, that means settling your differences and enjoying the game together rather than fighting every other day. This goes to both refs AND players.

In future, how about we don't argue? How about we don't debate, fight, name-call, troll, spam, flame and so on? How do you expect to join a community up when you are holding some personal grudge against members of that community? Let there be peace for once, play the game we came to play, laugh, chat and enjoy your time. Respect your refs, respect your players. Improve each other.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:49 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
refabuseisreal
Newbie poster

Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 27
You sound like a hippie in the 70s. Sadly the things you mentioned will never become reality.
I can't believe how you treat the people which are reporting abuses.
I won't report anymore and I think others won't also. We had some clear abuses for what the referee power should be taken away. Especially the last one with MMbow. I don't care if its his fucking birthday or not , I dont have special powers if I'd play at my birthday do I?
For what are the reports if you say again and again warning here and there please be friends guys. Don't know in which world you live, but not in mine.
If I do mistakes affecting other people, I'll get some punishment in some way especially if it happens often.
So my result is, you are running a kindergarden, and when someone stoles a child's toy for the 10th time, you say please be friendly dont do it again.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:17 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
eLeMenT
Newbie poster


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 93
Location: Complaints Desk
Re: Regarding the recent complaints

JmZ wrote:
I think it is truly disrespectful how some of you so childishly try to start petty drama for the sole purpose of dragging players from an otherwise fun game into a stressful debate. I have seen players try their best to provoke refs, and spend their time watching every little action, every word and every movement a ref does; just so they can find something else to debate about. These people who choose to push this provocation are the reason others cannot enjoy the game they once did, not the refs.

Show some respect to each other for once. This is a small community, a small game, the last thing we need is some completely useless divide between us. I suggest you aim to grow the game, not kill it. To many of you, that means settling your differences and enjoying the game together rather than fighting every other day. This goes to both refs AND players.

In future, how about we don't argue? How about we don't debate, fight, name-call, troll, spam, flame and so on? How do you expect to join a community up when you are holding some personal grudge against members of that community? Let there be peace for once, play the game we came to play, laugh, chat and enjoy your time. Respect your refs, respect your players. Improve each other.


Wow, RESPECT.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say or convey to certain players with my actions but could not have said it or done it any better.

Guys, if everyone is on the same page and follows these words of wisdom, I promise you we will all have a great time playing and there will be no arguments.

However, will it ever happen, where the players respect the refs and what they do, where everyone is just here to have fun and not troll each other? We'll see, and I hope it happens, I'm optimistic.

I personally will slowly, but surely, rid myself of whatever past judgement I've had of certain players. I'll do everything I can to show that I'm taking initiative and brush things off or laugh things out. I hope you can replicate what I do, because after all, we've all been playing this game for a long time and are all here to do nothing but have fun as this game is supposed to serve as a getaway, like all other games are. However, we have the advantage, we have a community.

refabuseisreal wrote:
If I do mistakes affecting other people, I'll get some punishment in some way especially if it happens often.


That's where the kicks came from! I promise you, everything I do, I do to promote positivity over negativity and this is exactly what I want for the server, a place where we can ALL have fun (and I'm sure you do too). Please listen to JmZ and please let's all just play games together Very Happy
_________________


PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:26 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
refabuseisreal
Newbie poster

Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 27
I bet you had your fun with mmbow today shooting scavs without tech in the first minutes of the game.
Here you act hypocritical and selfless, but on the server you rage act like erdogan and swears to 'refabuse the shit out of us'. Good job here done admins.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:02 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 537
Seriously, element didn't even apologize for an obvious abuse of power that gave him 5 or 6 kills and t2 5 or 6 deaths. And if you keep getting abuse threads and locking them and making vague justifications for an idiots actions, I can see right through you JmZ...

Lets not forget dingfires abuse "giving necro ballista crossbow". ofc dingfire will stick up for his abuse buddy Smile

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:10 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
Trigardon
Newbie poster

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 374
refabuseisreal wrote:
You sound like a hippie in the 70s. Sadly the things you mentioned will never become reality.
I can't believe how you treat the people which are reporting abuses.
I won't report anymore and I think others won't also. We had some clear abuses for what the referee power should be taken away. Especially the last one with MMbow. I don't care if its his fucking birthday or not , I dont have special powers if I'd play at my birthday do I?
For what are the reports if you say again and again warning here and there please be friends guys. Don't know in which world you live, but not in mine.
If I do mistakes affecting other people, I'll get some punishment in some way especially if it happens often.
So my result is, you are running a kindergarden, and when someone stoles a child's toy for the 10th time, you say please be friendly dont do it again.


QFT.
_________________


PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:45 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 537
Trigardon wrote:

QFT.


no words lol Smile

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:19 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
eLeMenT
Newbie poster


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 93
Location: Complaints Desk
You say he sounds like a hippie in the 70s and you also say we don't live in your world.

I don't know about you but I grew up playing games with a group of friends and we went to internet cafes to ditch school and sometimes on weekends. Even today, I have LAN parties where I invite my friends or go to their place. The concept JmZ was describing is maturity, friendships and community.

You may be a loner, hate humanity and prefer to live life on your own, but we don't. I have faith in humanity and I see the good in even the worst, such as people like yourself. You would be damn right to say I don't live in your world, I live in the ideal world, the world that every human strives to achieve. That's called humanity, and that's what being a man and growing up is about. Being a man isn't about your muscles or cursing humanity constantly, it's about integrity and compassion (only saying this because I know you're still only 19 years old). It's this kind of cooperation that has made us evolve as humans, no one ever made it anywhere on their own.

Let me know when you decide to grow up and join us in being "hippies in the 70s", I'll be waiting. Wink
_________________


PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:52 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
Clemens
Newbie poster

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 31
It shouldn't take longer than a couple of minutes to script game status restrictions to any desired ref python commands.
But since we all know you, Jmz, here's a push:

Check out def status()
in sv_events.py
to use server.GetGameInfo(GAME_STATE).

A simple matter.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:12 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
JmZ
Newbie poster

Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 193
thanks clemens, will test that out tomorrow

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:08 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
refabuseisreal
Newbie poster

Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 27
Such a bullshit post, element.
Your justifications getting more weird and abstract than usual.
What you do is tryna outplay the fact I am right and that you abused the power given to you to enforce rules on the server, with philosophical jabbering about your childhood. You lost your status of responsibility on the server population when you abused your power too often and when you made clear you do what you want , and if we don't like it we should report. What I actually did a few times. Sadly you were right, it doesnt help and jmz is not interested in his server seriously.
Sometimes maybe a ref has to be harsh and maybe even overshoot the target. But what you did is, YOU were harsh to people (not only me also shapeshifter etc) only to show them 'I stand above you'. And it is YOUR personal trouble in this case causing that, not ours. How could it be ours? You maybe think I'm a troll because I like sarcastic jokes and because I sympathized with kenway on server. There you see personal trouble. You get subjective, I stay objective with my facts.
Who you think you are to tell me how a man has to be? Wanna change me in this point aswell? Is it not enough for you breaking the rules on the server to enforce your own view of the world? And yes exactly you got no idea about me. Why do you compare yourself to me ???? And no I don't want to hear another creative text where you live out your hobby philosophical vein.
I don't have to mention it, but I feel to, actually I'm 23 years old. This is not old but I think I know how things between people work. Apart from my beautiful social live lol. But , this is not even relevant, what shows me how mature you are! (Talking about me being a loner while you are playing yourself all your birthday this game, who is the poor lone human being?.. and not enough giving you special powers haha)
Once again you are getting personal not others. And this time frightening extreme.
I don't say we all should be assholes, but you cant change people playing this game by saying 'hey guys lets be friends' and if not I kick you to make my point more clear. General you can't change this community or the people, how could you, are you god? And if you still think you can, then you are either naive or as I already said you take this as a your chance to overplay the fact you abused your powers, so often now. I see , it's more easy to say I did that for you, the server the people the community (btw NOBODY wants you to form this community in ANY way) instead of accepting in public you enjoyed abusing your power with every breath.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:13 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 537
Clemens wrote:
It shouldn't take longer than a couple of minutes to script game status restrictions to any desired ref python commands.
But since we all know you, Jmz, here's a push:

Check out def status()
in sv_events.py
to use server.GetGameInfo(GAME_STATE).

A simple matter.


Lets restrict refs because their actions can't be trusted, in fact lets remove all ref abilities so only the status remains and maybe we can have some uninterrupted games huh? with chat filter and better maps, who needs refs anymore seriously.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:45 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
Gridfon
Newbie poster


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
I think it is unproductive to merge so many topics into a single thread (encompassing three complaints and some lesson on ethics). As a result, this discussion is too general. From my perspective, JmZ's post has too much of an "us versus them" undertone. I find it hard to respond on this post without drowning in drama, and that is the main reason it took me so long to write anything. This requires me to keep my goals in mind to not get lost in someone's petty arguments.

It seems I have to assert my principles if this is to move anywhere. (1) I strongly prefer that all ref-related discussion happens in the forums, not in game. (2) I try to avoid making personal conflicts as much as possible. (3) I will keep my personal opinion about each of the refs to myself. I think I made most of it clear over the past weeks, trying to evade all ref-related in-game discussions when eLeMenT and others initiated them with me. I lost my patience and made somewhat personal conflicts with Telvek and SOMA in the past, but we also resolved those conflicts reasonably quickly. There is simply no gain in producing personal drama unless drama is all you want as the end result.

For me, this is about rules, not about refs. If I see that a rule repeatedly fails (not enforced, or enforced too strictly), and if that goes against my common sense, I will report it. I don't care whether I think you are the best or the worst ref around. I would have reported yesterday's kicks from GK because that defies my common sense. If I report anything, I expect to see an open discussion of how a certain situation should be handled. May be you'll convince me that my "common sense" is wrong, may be I will convince you that yours is wrong.

It is disappointing to see that just about everyone lives in a world that is different from mine. Regular players seem to assume that every complaint should lead to a demoted ref, however minor is the complaint. Refs work under the same assumption: it seems they try their best to never truly question their own actions because that would somehow mean that they are "bad" refs that should be immediately demoted. I have no problem saying that a certain ref did the right decision or the wrong decision on a case-by-case basis, and that should not be seen as me implying that the specific person is an amazing ref or a horrible ref in general. I expect refs to be able to handle feedback without me having to sugar-coat it if they were wrong. It's an integral part of taking this responsibility. You should be able to communicate and to adapt. In particular, I have repeatedly avoided calling my topics "complaints" (but I still do if that is the only way to get any replies). As far as I am concerned, forcing a server admin to formally answer "complaints" is the worst possible outcome. That means that all communication between players and refs already failed; they could not reach any consensus and need an authority to try settling their differences.

All of this should not be seen as an endorsement of JmZ's lesson on ethics. In particular, I think it is delusional of JmZ to ask people to not argue, to not debate, and so on. JmZ's philosophy of making an ideal community out of a bunch of online gamers from many countries and backgrounds sounds extremely superficial to me. This post is also not intended as way for me to make more friends from among refs; you can rest assured that I will keep highlighting problems whenever I see them. In particular, I hope that writing this lengthy explanation will enable me to post things more easily, without constantly worrying that someone will take my opinion too personally. If you do take too much offense - that will be your own problem.

Anyway, going back to my initial points:
1. Telvek's kick - JmZ assumed responsibility for the miscommunication amongst refs, fine.
2. Excessive kicks in general - JmZ asked refs to kick only as a last resort, fine.
3. Now can I get some more opinions regarding my second topic, please?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:34 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
Clemens
Newbie poster

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 31
djinghis wrote:
Lets restrict refs because their actions can't be trusted, in fact lets remove all ref abilities

Server Admins can already do that in multiple ways.

But wouldn't you just love not having any refs around to punish you... Rolling Eyes
You're one of the reason that servers even need refs in the first place. Very Happy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:13 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
djinghis
Newbie poster

Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 537
Clemens wrote:
djinghis wrote:
Lets restrict refs because their actions can't be trusted, in fact lets remove all ref abilities

Server Admins can already do that in multiple ways.

But wouldn't you just love not having any refs around to punish you... Rolling Eyes
You're one of the reason that servers even need refs in the first place. Very Happy


Actually, you don't play savage so how would you know (over emote to complete my sentence) after all the demos I provide against ref abusers, none of these refs have provided any against me - you find that strange? Maybe that's too great and many a concept for you to grasp all at one.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:39 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Mark this post and the followings unread Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 5 [63 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topicMark the topic unreadView next topic
 Forum index » General Discussion » Pulse's Server Forums
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

[ Time: 0.0861s ][ Queries: 18 (0.0069s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]