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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
coincoinmiaou2 wrote:
Well even if you answered to my questions i will reformul more clearly my questions to be sure of my understanding : (and im talking about pub games)
1) is attacking on top of building allowed if i can access it by a jump ? (i guess yes)
2) is attacking on top of building allowed if i can access it by shimmying ? (i guess no)
3) is using block behe allowed to get through a beast buildings wall area unreachable allowed even if beast can access it by a sublair ? (?)
4) is using block behe allowed to get through a beast buildings wall area unreachable allowed without beast access ? (i guess no)


Questions 1 and 2 are clearly answered here, based on Groentjuh's server rules and the accompanying guidelines by Skuggi. JmZ's server claims to follow exactly the same rules, so it should be the same. We have
(1) yes;
(2) no.

Most players ignore (2) though, and so do most of the refs. This rule is only enforced when a commander who owns the building makes a drama.

I do not understand your wording in (3) and (4), so I can't answer those. If I wanted to argue that most of the things are allowed, I would take the rules and highlight the following:
Skuggi wrote:

2. Players are not allowed to exploit the map or the terrain.
- This includes:
* Staying on top of a building to attack it or to gain unfair advantage by doing so. This can only be excepted if the roof of the specific building is directly and easily accessible, regardless of player race.
* Abusing the terrain to get to places other players can't get to.
* Utilizing damage blow-back (i.e. being hit by a behemoth) to reach otherwise unreachable areas. In case a player finds himself in such a spot he is to take the most direct route the same way back.

The "otherwise unreachable areas" applies to "damage blow-back". So if there is any other legit way to get there (shimmy, etc), then it's fine to stay there. Say, my lego lands in a closed-off tech pit, then... (1) If preds can shimmy over buildings to reach my location, I am allowed to stay there. (2) If T2 commander can destroy some buildings to make my location reachable, it's also legit... That's how one can interpret the wording of "to reach otherwise unreachable areas".

I suspect there is an easier, less cheaty way to justify why staying in closed-off tech pits is allowed after a behe fly. (sorel might remember more than I do about this topic.) Either way, I agree with TRA that this should be about common sense, not about obscure interpretation of wording. The rules should be changed if there is any doubt. Legos should not be unresonably punished for blocking a behe.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:47 am
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The Raging Asparagus
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Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 127
 Gridfon I think after the discussion you had Telvek changed the rule to this version which seems logical (i.e map designed terrain).

Bottom line we both agree here, however I do wish the referee staff will confirm here dingfire (and Telvek) were wrong and this rule should not be interpret as inaccessible places due to tech design (i.e beast com design of tech creating non-natural inaccessible areas).

Hence it needs to be altered in server rules

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:00 am
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Dingfire
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Joined: 04 May 2015
Posts: 155
Location: Belgium
 So commanders have to sacrifice tech because somebody used a behe to get into the closed area? First time I hear that...

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:01 am
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tushaar
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Joined: 23 Apr 2014
Posts: 15
Dingfire wrote:
So commanders have to sacrifice tech because somebody used a behe to get into the closed area? First time I hear that...


That makes another question, Why behe at your base at all for defensive purposes?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:54 am
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Necro
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Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 14
Location: England
 Well yes, it's one of the risks of building a barrier. Should have build sub/spires in that enclosed area and/or not had a behe patrolling your base. Great debate, ladies o3o Good read.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:52 pm
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Dingfire
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Joined: 04 May 2015
Posts: 155
Location: Belgium
tushaar wrote:
Dingfire wrote:
So commanders have to sacrifice tech because somebody used a behe to get into the closed area? First time I hear that...


That makes another question, Why behe at your base at all for defensive purposes?


What would you do if you were behe rushing with the team on a small map which only has one lane, and suddenly saw a lego heading for tech?

besides, I had just lost a sub so they only had one spawn point

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:04 pm
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The Raging Asparagus
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Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 127
Quote:
So commanders have to sacrifice tech because somebody used a behe to get into the closed area? First time I hear that...


Of course they should.
Somebody= a behe from their team.

Commanders are generally in charge of their team.. like asking to Pmine or asking to build a sub you should ask people to use behe with care and take a risk.

If someone in beast fucks up.. it is not the human who should pay the price.
As beast comm you can be pre-emptive and build a sub or opposite burrow to get inside the techs "blocked area" so you will not have to sell tech in such case.

I'm talking about a reasonable amount of responsibility I think.

Anyway, I'm not saying you were wrong as currently the rule is ambiguous.
Also I can promise you that if you gave Shapeshifter a fireball and enough time he would be able to get to that area (but this question should be irrelevant since a human player has no idea if an area is reachable after behe blow-back by shimmy or fireball).

Hence i'm saying you (refs) should change the rule asap.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:36 pm
Last edited by The Raging Asparagus on Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 554
 why not make your own fucking thread - this is about Dingfire giving god weapons and abusing his power

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:44 pm
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Necro
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Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 14
Location: England
 so predictable
https://postimg.org/image/v223bvbzp/
Too late now

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:12 pm
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tushaar
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Joined: 23 Apr 2014
Posts: 15
Necro wrote:
so predictable
https://postimg.org/image/v223bvbzp/
Too late now


That is off-topic mate =)

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:04 pm
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Trigardon
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Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 376
Necro wrote:
so predictable
https://postimg.org/image/v223bvbzp/
Too late now


Made my day, thank you.
_________________


PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:28 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 554
Trigardon wrote:
Necro wrote:
so predictable
https://postimg.org/image/v223bvbzp/
Too late now


Made my day, thank you.


Not much of a day lol

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:08 am
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Stringer
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Joined: 28 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
 Point 1.

The blowback rule is about areas unreachable by design, areas that you aren't meant to get to at all, like behind an unkilled grimm wall, or behind a terrain hill.

Player-made building does not render an area unreachable by design, it just makes it harder to get to. Otherwise 2 out of 3 shield sacs would be illegal.

If a human managed to get behind beasts tech without using explicitly illegal stuff like walking on hills, well, props to him and shame on beasts who allowed it.

Was this way for 10 years, will be for another 10. If you think otherwise, get out of the cave and check out the real world.


Point 2.

Under no circumstance ref should ever use his item-giving abilities during a normal game.

If you considered something as exploit, you should have stopped the exploiter.

If you could not, you should fix the damage by reverting it (giving back stone, etc)

If the damage is too much to fix, well, you fucked up, do better next time, but don't just change the game based on whatever your weird sense of fairness tells you.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:31 pm
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The Raging Asparagus
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Joined: 18 Mar 2016
Posts: 127
 Well it's nice you and Gridfon understand the rule.

But again it looks to me like every ref has his own understanding of it.
So refining/altering the rule seems vital.

JMZ, can you do it?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:24 pm
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Telvek
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 185
 tl, dr.
What's up here?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:47 pm
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