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Feathers abuse
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Ale
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 46
  Feathers abuse
Hello.

I want to report succession of referee abuses by Feathers, taken place on Groentjuhs Kingdom 12th July around 1:30 pm.

What happened:

We wanted to play the map eden2. I was human and so was Feathers. He started an elect vote and told us that he wants to sac rush. I did not feel like destroying this beautiful map with a sacrush and voted F2. Nevertheless he got elected (with a vote that nearly failed). Anyhow it seemed that I was not the only one not willing to sacrush because some other guy (forgot his name) started an elect vote right after him. Like 90% of our team voted F1 instantly and that vote would have passed easily if not for Feather /ref stopvote. Me and a few other guys claimed it as an abuse and I said "join spec if you think that was an abuse" in teamchat. Around 50% of team 1 joined spec. Feathers cried for a restart and started a vote - failed- so he restarted the match with his ref. Paladin aka United States President (or what his name was) said "abuse" again and called a kickvote. It seemed like the server agreed with him because the vote instantly got around 10 F1s while only a few F2's and once again it would have passed easily. Feathers stopped the vote and kicked Paladin. Seeing unjustice happening I did the same: Started a kick vote and stated the reason "refabuse". He stopped the vote (with more than 90% F1's) and kicked me. Since I was connected to people via teamspeak that were still on the server, I heared that the same thing happened to EnglishSlug. After that gant_mango started a kickvote as well but I'm not sure what happened then. I do not demorecord by default so I did not possess any useful evidences. What I did: I posted the whole story in the Newerth shoutbox and waited for his reaction. He admitted it indirectly by arguing as if my comments were a fact. Screenshot below:



I deleted my comments by now because it's pretty much missplaced and can be rated as spam.

Why I think this was an abuse? Well our team obviously didn't want him to command. That other guy trying to elect himself got so many F1's in such a high pace that it speaks for itself. It's the decision of the team who they prefer as commander. If the change their mind, they change their mind. Also I've never experienced that such an elect vote ever got stoppped when I was comm (and it happened quite a few times even on the same day). My way to punish this abuse was to suggest my teamnates to join spec if they think that it was unjustice and so they did. Feathers did not care and abused his referee once again to restart the match. The well-reasoned kickvotes got stopped, ok that's discussable, but the appropriate reaction would be a mute for the originator not a kick wouldn't it? Also at least 90% of the server agreed that it was an abuse by voting F1.

I don't think this whole issue is reason enough to remove Feathers ref but I would like to ask the admins to make sure this never happens again or at least state proper rules about elect votes in warm-up if somebody already took over command. I would also appreciate an apologize for those who got misstreated.

Additional information: After defending his commseat so passionated, Feathers went spec and did not command that match.


Thank you for your attention,

Ale

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:39 am
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Moxy
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Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 291
Location: UK
 Stopin the elect votes when a team already has a commander is common practise for refs and not abuse.... restarting the match in the first few minutes because of uneven teams is not abuse either, as long as he even the teams as well. thats just doing his job as ref for making sure the game is fair.

the kicks for voiting to kick feathers, whilst might be a bit harsh, i myself would of just muted, can be justified a little on the opoint that you are harrasing a ref after he was simple doing his job as he was meant to.

the bailing to spec and eventualy not commanding the round by feathers is just douche, but again, not breaking any rules.

i also have to ask why you waited 12 hours before making the abuse topic?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:11 am
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Ale
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 46
Moxy wrote:
Stopin the elect votes when a team already has a commander is common practise for refs and not abuse.


So feel free to do it for me the next time aswell. Like I mentioned It happened to me aswell on the same day with Feathers and other referees online. None of them gave a shit. And an additional question: If a team decides that they want an other comm, how is this suppose to happen if refs stop elect votes?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:18 am
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Moxy
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Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 291
Location: UK
 impeach first

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:26 am
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djargon
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Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 206
 not true moxy

in the past we as refs always said not impeach, but elect a other comm.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:05 pm
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
Ale wrote:
I was human and so was Feathers. He started an elect vote and told us that he wants to sac rush.

Humans can sac rush?
Moxy wrote:
Stopin the elect votes when a team already has a commander is common practise for refs and not abuse....

Not quite, there's hardly ever a reason to stop an elect vote, even during the game. The only exception I can recall at once is when a 0/0 newbie is trying to elect himself. I have never stopped experienced commander votes and I have not seen other refs doing that.
For example, I remember a situation when in the middle of the game toxic was fighting with another comm. Toxic stole the comm seat, then the original comm elected himself back, then toxic stole the comm seat again, then the original comm went for elect vote again. Even that's perfectly reasonable, what can we do if a team can't decide which comm they like more... What I did though is at some point say that the current elect vote is the last one, and the next ones will get stopped, in order to avoid more server-wide drama.
Moxy wrote:
restarting the match in the first few minutes because of uneven teams is not abuse either, as long as he even the teams as well. thats just doing his job as ref for making sure the game is fair.

Well, I believe we never do that as well. I don't remember a single ref restart like that, just as with the point above. If the teams are unfair, then call the even teams vote.
Moxy wrote:

the kicks for voiting to kick feathers, whilst might be a bit harsh, i myself would of just muted, can be justified a little on the opoint that you are harrasing a ref after he was simple doing his job as he was meant to.

In general, kicking for calling a kick vote is not acceptable. But true, it depends on the context. If a guy puts a prolonged effort to disturb the server or harass the ref, then it might be ok.
Moxy wrote:
i also have to ask why you waited 12 hours before making the abuse topic?

--->
Ale wrote:
I do not demorecord by default so I did not possess any useful evidences. What I did: I posted the whole story in the Newerth shoutbox and waited for his reaction. He admitted it indirectly by arguing as if my comments were a fact. Screenshot below:


PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:41 pm
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Feathers
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 407
 Ok Ale lets throw in the facts which you've overlooked shall we?

Paladin attempted to elect himself and failed, I attempted and succeeded. T1 had a commander, we were ready to have a game. Then you, Mr Franklin and someone else attempted to vote yourself in when there was two commanders, hence the stopvote.

After you cried abuse (when it wasn't) and said to my team go spec if you think it was abuse, 5-6 left and went specs, giving the fact that t1 was stacked anyone in number and skill. A restart was justified, I did not call the restartvote, some nicklamer (began with "O" his name did) called the vote. Restart votes rarely work anyway, so I ref restarted it.

The ref kick against you was imo valid. Lately you've a right twat against me, and that was the last straw. In future instead of provoking a ref use your brain.



If you're going to use this as your "proof" why didn't you post the earlier comments instead of cut and pasting?

Ale wrote:

Also at least 90% of the server agreed that it was an abuse by voting F1.

Kind of wrong, any ref/mute vote against a ref usually passes.

Ale wrote:

Additional information: After defending his commseat so passionated, Feathers went spec and did not command that match.


I explained that to you in-game...I was afk, talking to Groentjuh, who can verify it.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:47 pm
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Moxy
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Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 291
Location: UK
Gridfon wrote:
Moxy wrote:
Stopin the elect votes when a team already has a commander is common practise for refs and not abuse....

Not quite, there's hardly ever a reason to stop an elect vote, even during the game. The only exception I can recall at once is when a 0/0 newbie is trying to elect himself. I have never stopped experienced commander votes and I have not seen other refs doing that.
For example, I remember a situation when in the middle of the game toxic was fighting with another comm. Toxic stole the comm seat, then the original comm elected himself back, then toxic stole the comm seat again, then the original comm went for elect vote again. Even that's perfectly reasonable, what can we do if a team can't decide which comm they like more... What I did though is at some point say that the current elect vote is the last one, and the next ones will get stopped, in order to avoid more server-wide drama.


if the commander is known to be a decent com then i stop all elect votes during the game becuase normaly newbs just f1 whateva the vote... if drk tells me im doing it worng then so be it i will let them votes continue...

Gridfon wrote:

Moxy wrote:
restarting the match in the first few minutes because of uneven teams is not abuse either, as long as he even the teams as well. thats just doing his job as ref for making sure the game is fair.

Well, I believe we never do that as well. I don't remember a single ref restart like that, just as with the point above. If the teams are unfair, then call the even teams vote.


Really am i the only ref that does this along with feathers? i dont do it when the game has lasted for more than 10 minutes because then thats just unfair to the other team whos worked hard and mostrly got full tech by then, but if a team bails within the first say 5 minutes i restart the match and even the teams in the essence of a fair game, again if im refing this situation wrong please DRK tell me...

Gridfon wrote:

Moxy wrote:

the kicks for voiting to kick feathers, whilst might be a bit harsh, i myself would of just muted, can be justified a little on the opoint that you are harrasing a ref after he was simple doing his job as he was meant to.

In general, kicking for calling a kick vote is not acceptable. But true, it depends on the context. If a guy puts a prolonged effort to disturb the server or harass the ref, then it might be ok.


agree

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:21 pm
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Ale
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 46
Feathers wrote:

Paladin attempted to elect himself and failed, I attempted and succeeded. T1 had a commander, we were ready to have a game. Then you, Mr Franklin and someone else attempted to vote yourself in when there was two commanders, hence the stopvote.


Mr. Franklin started the elect vote for himself right after you got into comm. There was no "ready to play" status it was more like a "still working out who we want as comm" status. I did not try to elect myself whatsoever.


Feathers wrote:
If you're going to use this as your "proof" why didn't you post the earlier comments instead of cut and pasting?


What would it change? For those who havn't read it, I posted sth like "please remove Feathers ref, abusing like a boss..." and listed all your mistakes.


Feathers wrote:
Kind of wrong, any ref/mute vote against a ref usually passes.


No. Kick votes hardly pass even if there are good reasons for the kick.


Feathers wrote:

I explained that to you in-game...I was afk, talking to Groentjuh, who can verify it.


So what?


I would also like to add that one of the main reasons for me posting all this was your lack of courtesy and your "im a ref and you're nothing" behaviour. I did not insult you in any way, I just wanted to make you see your own mistakes (and I still think they are mistakes even if they do not break any rule directly). I think the way you acted throws a dark shadow on the whole referee community. It looked like a selfish dictator making himself commander by all means whilst ignoring the will of the team. And once again, the fact that half of your team bailed to spec proves that im not the only one who felt like that.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:06 pm
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Feathers
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 407
Ale wrote:
Feathers wrote:

Paladin attempted to elect himself and failed, I attempted and succeeded. T1 had a commander, we were ready to have a game. Then you, Mr Franklin and someone else attempted to vote yourself in when there was two commanders, hence the stopvote.


Mr. Franklin started the elect vote for himself right after you got into comm. There was no "ready to play" status it was more like a "still working out who we want as comm" status. I did not try to elect myself whatsoever.

When two commanders are present and both telling the team the plan...if that is not a "ready to play" status I don't know what is.


Feathers wrote:
If you're going to use this as your "proof" why didn't you post the earlier comments instead of cut and pasting?


Ale wrote:
What would it change? For those who havn't read it, I posted sth like "please remove Feathers ref, abusing like a boss..." and listed all your mistakes.

Copy and pasting the bits you want doesn't help you if you leave out the main bits.


Feathers wrote:
Kind of wrong, any ref/mute vote against a ref usually passes.


Ale wrote:
No. Kick votes hardly pass even if there are good reasons for the kick.
You're either blind or a fool then.


Feathers wrote:

I explained that to you in-game...I was afk, talking to Groentjuh, who can verify it.

Ale wrote:

So what?
So now you've recognised I did explain to you in game why I was not commanding why did you post this?

Ale wrote:

Additional information: After defending his commseat so passionated, Feathers went spec and did not command that match.


Ale wrote:

I would also like to add that one of the main reasons for me posting all this was your lack of courtesy and your "im a ref and you're nothing" behaviour.

Explain to me why I should show you in particular courtesy, when you've destroyed a game and pissed me off, a few days before you being a complete arse towards me. Treat me with courtesy and respect instead of raging and I'll do the same.


Ale wrote:

I did not insult you in any way, I just wanted to make you see your own mistakes (and I still think they are mistakes even if they do not break any rule directly).

So I've not broken any rules and you've cried abuse? Case closed then.

Ale wrote:

I think the way you acted throws a dark shadow on the whole referee community. It looked like a selfish dictator making himself commander by all means whilst ignoring the will of the team. And once again, the fact that half of your team bailed to spec proves that im not the only one who felt like that.


Think what you want and totally ignore what I've wrote beforehand which you have done, but if the most lenient ref is kicking you, you know you've peeved him off.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:30 pm
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Ale
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 46
 I'm not gonna quote all of your ridiculous statements again just to see you ignoring any kind of logic and common sense again and posting another letter full of trash (and yes im starting to insult you right here and now).

One of these answers is applicable for each sentence you wrote in the post above:

"I completly disagree/I do not recall what you're talking about/Makes absolutely no sense"

Maybe somebody else understood what I was trying to tell you and can explain it to you. I give up.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:46 pm
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Feathers
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 407
 Still waiting for you to post something that includes logic or common sense. You've already said I didn't abuse anything.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:23 pm
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Ale
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 46
 I am sorry Feathers. I thought as a native speaker you understand the meaning of the word "if".

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:01 am
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Feathers
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Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 407
 As a native speaker I struggle to see what you are attempting to point out, maybe if you're attempting to play smart, start again?

Or maybe stop nit-picking and wait and see what Groentjuh or drk comment.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:47 am
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Ale
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Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 46
Feathers wrote:
As a native speaker I struggle to see what you are attempting to point out


I feel sorry for you then. I didn't made it too hard to understand.

Feathers wrote:
wait and see what Groentjuh or drk comment.


Exactly what im trying to do but your senseless comments are making it really hard.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:05 pm
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