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Fat_Fingers app for ref
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Fat_Fingers
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Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1
 Fat_Fingers app for ref

was a ref on leet for a long tyme aand thought i did a good job, would like to do that sevice again, just because there are not many ref's out there

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:09 pm
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Telvek
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 185
Good Luck Wink

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:06 pm
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Trigardon
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Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 375
Welcome. Trial-Referee granted.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:25 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
With your first first post on Groentjuh, you could've taken the time to at least check spelling, and I'm not sure there's a lack of refs at all.


Don't you need some sort of grasp of English to referee? I've witnessed some of Fat_Fingers adjudication on Leet and can say he had little understanding of the rules (possible never read them) and his game style is contrary to the EU rules i.e he only camps with siege. Also when someone was exploiting on leet one time, he kicked 3 wrong people before he got the correct player.

Don't you find it strange that this person joins the forums, makes one post requesting ref, and its granted no questions asked?

At least give him the training he sorely needs. as for his English, you should at least talk to him for a minute or two and find out. People who spell "know" "no" for example should be euthanized.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:44 am
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
Fat_Fingers was an incompetent ref on US, and he will be no better on EU. He is much better as a person and as a regular player, so please let's just keep it in that status.

US server died roughly 1.5 years ago, so I'm afraid I won't be able to give you a lot of anecdotal evidence. But it happened more than once that Fat_Fingers would first ignore my spam asking him to react to some rule breaker, and later ignore my spam asking why he did not react. All of that while being active on the field, meaning not AFK. There is no point giving a ref to someone who completely ignores most of the chat going his way. I do not remember any more details anymore, but I do remember that I considered him to be a particularly bad ref at the time.

For the anecdotal evidence, you can consider the following:
1. I got warned to follow a US rule on EU server unless I want to get slayed.
2. I got slayed without a warning, for behe camping on a map where (to the best of my knowledge) no refs ever enforce camping at all.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:18 am
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
1. You mean you were warned to follow the EU rules on EU servers or you were warned "not" to follow US rules on EU?
2. Dependent on what you mean in point 1, you were slayed on an EU server for camping a spawn point with Behemoth. Isn't that the rule? the map voids any documentation of its exemption to the camping rule therefore your evidence can't support your claim.

Despite that, you're right about FF being a bad referee.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:53 pm
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Trigardon
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Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 375
Thanks for the report. Awaiting statement from Fat_Fingers.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:17 pm
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Telvek
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 185
I took a look at the Demo. In the beginning of the story, fat fingers acted wrong, because a "choke point behe camp" rule does not exist.
However, after the sub was up, you camped for about 20-30 seconds at/next to the Sub-lair.
About the warning, well. He warned you during the choke point, but not direct at the sub. Hard to define. So to be honest I do not understand your point Gridfon :/
In my opinion the action was correct, but he could maybe warn you again obviously. As far as I know, refs are not forced to warn, but they should do it. Or am I now totally wrong?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:50 pm
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
Telvek wrote:
About the warning, well. He warned you during the choke point, but not direct at the sub. Hard to define. So to be honest I do not understand your point Gridfon :/

Not sure which exactly part is "hard to define" here. Make yourself clear.

Telvek wrote:
he could maybe warn you again

You got something wrong here, as "warn you again" makes no sense. The fact that he asked me to follow US rules only aggravates his offense of slaying me without a warning. This just shows that he is clueless on several levels. On the one hand, he did not bother to check EU rules. On the other hand, his years of refing on US did not help him to get some common sense that a ref should warn about minor offenses before slaying or kicking.

Telvek wrote:
As far as I know, refs are not forced to warn, but they should do it. Or am I now totally wrong?

If someone is exploiting to ruin the game, you can kick him without a warning. But I have not seen any referee, in my several years around here, properly slay siege campers without a warning. Since most refs do not understand the siege camping rule, I am sure that they should not be allowed to do this, either.

The couple of times I did see refs slay siege campers without a warning, it was a ref abuse. Slaying without a warning is nearly always a consequence of some ref overacting, hence abusing the rules and raising complaints from the innocent victims. I know, I have done it myself and I have seen other refs do that.

P.S. A large fraction of maps we play nowadays are "small, crap, one-way maps where all camping is allowed". This makes the camping rule effectively outdated, and most refs hardly ever ref any camping. (I do remember Telvek recently bragging how rarely he uses his ref). The existence of such maps, in large quantities, is yet another reason why slaying without a warning is particularly dangerous nowadays. There is no way to navigate the rules, with each ref applying in his own fairy set of rules, unless the refs explicitly explain why and how they are going to enforce the rules prior to every time of doing that.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:56 pm
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Telvek
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 185
Gridfon wrote:
Telvek wrote:
About the warning, well. He warned you during the choke point, but not direct at the sub. Hard to define. So to be honest I do not understand your point Gridfon :/

Not sure which exactly part is "hard to define" here. Make yourself clear.


With "Hard to define", I mean it's difficult to say that he did not warn you at all, because obviously, he did, however for another reason.

Gridfon wrote:
Telvek wrote:
he could maybe warn you again

You got something wrong here, as "warn you again" makes no sense. The fact that he asked me to follow US rules only aggravates his offense of slaying me without a warning.


As I said, his opinion about the choke point camp was wrong, that's also why I said "Hard to define" because he warned for something harmless. I meant he should have warned you while you were camping at the sub and not instakill you.

Oh and by the way:
Gridfon wrote:
A large fraction of maps we play nowadays are "small, crap, one-way maps where all camping is allowed". This makes the camping rule effectively outdated, and most refs hardly ever ref any camping. (I do remember Telvek recently bragging how rarely he uses his ref).


Telvek wrote:

In my opinion Camping maps, so maps where refs do not punish it, do not exist. Either the ref is too lazy or too inexperienced to punish correctly.

I just did not forget I am still a normal player as well, that can solve the most complaints without any use of Refpower^^. I refuse to tolerate the suspicion that I ignore or do not care about camping.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:56 pm
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Gridfon
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 238
Telvek wrote:
In my opinion Camping maps, so maps where refs do not punish it, do not exist. Either the ref is too lazy or too inexperienced to punish correctly.

This opinion is one of your new inventions. The concept of "we don't ref camping on maps like puchi3t" is very old, at least since 2012-2013; may be earlier. There is no single ref you can call lazy or inexperienced for not refing such maps, but you can blame the entire ref system if you wish. In particular, this idea was also approved by a ref admin at the time.

I was reasonably active ever since you became a ref (even though I nicklamed through most of the summer). I do not remember seeing you ref any camping on such maps, meaning neither warn nor slay the campers. And I assure you that it is hard to forget the situations when refs are enforcing something unusual, where "unusual" is not necessarily "wrong". (For example, I clearly remember that SOMA will consistently slay commanders that spawn siege in 3v3-ish games, even though most refs have always allowed that throughout the years.)

I also know that you never started a conversation amongst refs, asking why we allow camping on such maps, or proposing to stop doing that.

Telvek wrote:
I just did not forget I am still a normal player that can solve the most complaints without any use of Refpower^^. I refuse to tolerate the suspicion that I ignore or do not care about camping.

Not sure how your claims match the reality. You are one of the refs (the other being SOMA) who can tolerate someone spamming or any racist crap all day long, and prefer to entirely ignore it in order to avoid getting into a conflict. Conveniently, you are also the ref who admits to hardly ever use the ref powers. This, coupled with other everyday observations about you, make me question whether you are doing anything useful with your ref at all, unless it directly involves your own gameplay (which is exactly the opinion I heard from other players, too).

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:45 pm
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Telvek
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 185
I have to admit I may act extraordinary as ref. Some say, I dont care about Insults and camping, others mean I do not ref at all. I just can say that I always try to create a nice, fair atmosphere in-game without any big disadvantages. I just try to ref like Ale describes it:
Ale wrote:

A referee should (not only in Savage but in every game around the world) remain unnoticed as long as the game is fluid and everbody is having fun. Even if rules are broken every now and then, a referee should not take any action as long as noone gets heavily miss treated or an unfair action is drastically changing the balance of powers and/or the outcome of the match. Its not about following the rules word for word (a bot could do that) its about using your common sense and allowing everybody to have his share of fun.


I just talked with trigardon about some ref stuff, among others about my behaviour towards insults and racism. All in all I must say: You are both right. It is true that do not punish insults and also racism not every time, simply because the insulted person does not always care about the remark. But I will try to improve my Work, through stricter reactions concerning insults/racism/camping. I hope I would have learned it easier than blaming me in an open thread. But well it happened and thats it. If you still dont agree with my attitude Gridfon, just message me in a private chat.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:05 pm
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djinghis
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Joined: 25 Sep 2014
Posts: 548
~On topic,

~This is the kind of constructive dialogue that elevates you above Neanderthal to modern day human, worthy of consideration to take on responsibilities such as EU referee.
~This is not the case with FF..

~Of topic,

The 3 major factors affecting game-play currently.

1: out-of-bounds exploits.
2: Attacking on-top of buildings.
3: Demolition charge block.

the following are secondary to the above IMO.

4: Ballista/catapult/summoner camping.
5: Behemoth camping.

Non-gameplay issues.

6: racism.
7: spam.
8: insults.

Although most if not all of these (1/2/3 especially) have technical solutions, the hapless remaining dev(s) of XR won't bother to implement them, so we must do what we can. I used to care about point 6/7/8 but realistically kicking them will only make them want to do it more.
Id prefer the laid back style of refereeing so long as they punish obvious exploits unfair to the game and ref objectively.
And I may have said it before but, having a map constantly exploited and having mappers and map admins play/witness the issue and not doing squat really grinds my turkey. the amount of people willing to fix maps in the past was more than sufficient - hence the _fix postfix on many maps. So why are the current crop of players so lazy?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:08 am
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drk
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Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 370
Trigardon wrote:
Welcome. Trial-Referee granted.

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:25 pm

Please don't be so super-fast. At least give time to others to tell something Wink

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:12 pm
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JmZ
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Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 193
fat fingers is a great ref, your stereotypical dislike of US referees shouldn't affect votes such as this.

Similarly, your own bad experiences (being the receiver of referee actions) shouldn't affect such a vote. A trial is a trial.

Well done FF, enjoy Smile

On a side note, that non-existent referee training you never thought to implement would kinda resolve the unsure/miscommunicated actions you complain about.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:05 pm
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